Merlock expansion - IMPLEMENTED

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:17 pm

Hey look the water goblins have a step up from normal goblins. They ain't slaves anymore they've ranked up to Servant. :lol: images look great.

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Alexander82
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:15 pm

Savra wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:17 pm
Hey look the water goblins have a step up from normal goblins. They ain't slaves anymore they've ranked up to Servant. :lol: images look great.
Ahahah yeah! I wanted to avoid simply calling them "water goblin slave" xD
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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:32 pm

So after this orcs will have 7 naval units (water goblin gutter is in their with croc rider) and we have the war barge and we have 8. These being the ones most likely to be added.

Humans:8-11 counting ones to be added
Orcs:8-9 counting ones to be added.
Undead:2-4
Elves:8-9
Scaledfolk:3-4
Dwarves:2

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Alexander82
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:44 pm

You shouldn't simply count them by numbers. It is true that undeads haven't many ships but they can massively move all their units through water

The approaches are different and we should always consider the approach of every race to a certain situation
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Lynx Shafir
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Lynx Shafir » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:08 pm

By approach ork should not be the best in water but they are far the best.

Counting this goblins are special units (not as ground cousins) they should be min 3cost or the merlochs 3, but surely needs some sensible difference.(with ranged attack too
(same reason why fire Archer are more costly than normal - no great stat difference just the medium /effect - consecutively makes more costly. - same for the water - more special medium needs adjusted stats - not spammable units.
@makazuwr32?

Also I would ask, how undead Pirates walk on water? Theoretically
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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:44 pm

They don't, they "sneak around" under water and attack the ship from there.

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Alexander82
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:34 am

As I told before to everyone... I'm expanding all races and I've also planned a whole bunch of techs to improve human ships.

How many other times should I explain that?

Also why worrying about the undead pirates when all undeads already walk on water? They are simply better at doing that.

Also you must consider these to be the navy of orcs and not simply infantry with an additional ability.

Where other races use transports orcs create units that walk water

Is not a great deal since, as I already said, many races still need a whole fleet.
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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:10 am

So let's see back on topic, all we need is the crocidile rider plus the goblin gutter that it drops on death and we're set right?

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Alexander82
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:45 am

More or less. Maybe a net throwing tech
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:30 am

Btw if it is a crocodile it is not necessary the drop on death thing I guess
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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:39 pm

I figured that would add more flavor to the unit.

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:15 am

The Crocodile riders! Fear their Crocs ferocious bite, and the small water goblin with the annoying fish hook.

Crocodile rider:
Image
Desc: Some crazy water Goblins figured they try taming the crocodiles in their river to use as mounts. What's even more crazy? They succeeded.
Cost:5
Trains: Merlock hut
Hp:30
Atk:12
Rng:1
Sight:6
Spd:5 Land:2
Arm:2
P.arm:2
Res:20%
Abilities:
Drops goblin gutter in death.
Bonuses: Amphibious 100%, ships 75%

Elite Crocodile rider:
Image
Desc: These water goblins are more well trained with their crocodile mounts, they can bring more havok to the seas.
Hp:37
Atk:16
Rng:1
Sight:7
Spd:6 land:2
Arm:3
P.arm:3
Res:20%
Abilities:
Drops elite water goblin gutter on death.

Master Crocodile rider:
Image
Desc: These water Goblins have perfected their riding with their Crocs. They truly have become a menace at sea.
Hp:44
Atk:20
Rng:1
Sight:8
Spd:7 land:2
Arm:4
P.arm:4
Res:20%
Abilities:
Drops master water goblin gutter on death.

Water Goblin gutter:
Image
Desc: a water goblin with a sharp fish hook.
Hp:10
Atk:6
Rng:1
Sight:5
Spd:4 land:2
Arm:0
P.arm:0
Res:0%

No bonuses.

Elite Water Goblin gutter:
Image
Desc: they now have sharper fish hooks.
Hp:12
Atk:8
Rng:1
Sight:6
Spd:5 land:2
Arm:1
P.arm:1
Res:0

Master Water Goblin gutter:
Image
Desc: They are now well armoured and equip with jagged fish hooks.
Hp:16
Atk:10
Rng:1
Sight:7
Spd:6 land:2
Arm:2
P.arm:2
Res:0

Will update later I need to check some things.
Attachments
Master Crocodile rider.png
Master Crocodile rider.png (2.52 KiB) Viewed 1695 times
Elite Crocodile rider.png
Elite Crocodile rider.png (2.39 KiB) Viewed 1695 times
Crocodile rider.png
Crocodile rider.png (2.39 KiB) Viewed 1695 times
Last edited by Savra on Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:12 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:46 am

The gutters.
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Master Water Goblin gutter.png
Master Water Goblin gutter.png (1.6 KiB) Viewed 1693 times
Elite Water Goblin gutter.png
Elite Water Goblin gutter.png (1.55 KiB) Viewed 1693 times
Water goblin gutter.png
Water goblin gutter.png (1.57 KiB) Viewed 1693 times

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:14 am

If no one has any objections I'll add to ready list.

Note, ready list does not mean it gets implemented right away, it just says the topic is ready for it and needs approval to be added.

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makazuwr32
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:44 am

I will look onto it on sunday.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:59 pm

Had to show some differences in the mounts.
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Master Crocodile rider.png
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Crocodile rider.png
Crocodile rider.png (2.39 KiB) Viewed 1601 times

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:48 am

Ok final groups:
Attachments
Master Crocodile rider.png
Master Crocodile rider.png (2.66 KiB) Viewed 1577 times
Elite Crocodile rider.png
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Crocodile rider.png
Crocodile rider.png (2.39 KiB) Viewed 1577 times

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Lynx Shafir
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Lynx Shafir » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:22 am

What if they drop hostile crocks if they die.?
:lol:
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Midonik » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:26 am

But they would be under player's control I suppose.
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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:28 am

Lynx Shafir wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:22 am
What if they drop hostile crocks if they die.?
:lol:
backfire
what the crocodile get angry at everything if you kill his water goblin buddy? :lol:

All kidding aside, I'm pretty sure the reality is the person would kill the most lethal creature first before they regret it later. In other words they would be aiming at the crocodile.

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:15 am

Ok, @Alexander82 after testing the each armies navy and such I now agree with you on combining orcs tech and merlock tech so merlocks need orc tech first before they use theirs and water goblins would need goblin tech first before merlock tech.

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:39 pm

If we get the other races rebalance and defences in the orcs navy will no longer be a problem. Considering none have bonus to structures a aquatic wall could hold them at bay for a little while till you reinforce your position. Oh yes a d the other races navy units as well. (*cough*Elves*cough*)

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:52 am

Water Goblin Harpoonist (possible alternative names Gill Goblin, Mer-blin)

Base
Image
Cost: 2 turns
Hp: 12
Attack: 6
Range: 4
Armor : 0
P. Armor: 0
Speed: 2 (water 4)
Sight: 5
Action: 1
Spell resist: 0%
Bonuses: 100% bonus to sea infantry, 50% bonus to sea giants
Elite
Image
Cost: 2 turns
Hp: 16
Attack: 7
Range: 5
Armor : 1
P. Armor: 1
Speed: 2 (water 5)
Sight: 6
Action: 1
Spell resist: 0%to
Bonuses: 100% bonus to sea infantry, 50% bonus to sea giants
Master
Image
Cost: 2 turns
Hp: 20
Attack: 8
Range: 6
Armor : 2
P. Armor: 2
Speed: 2 (water 6)
Sight: 7
Action: 1
Spell resist: 0%
Bonuses: 100% bonus to sea infantry, 50% bonus to Sea giants
Merlock chain fighter

Base
Image
Cost: 5 turns
Hp: 30
Attack: 8
Range: 2
Armor : 0
P. Armor: 0
Speed: 2 (water 4)
Sight: 5
Action: 2
Spell chance: 20%
Spell resist: 0%
Special:
hold ship: enemy ships are stopped in place for 1 turn and their res spell is lowered by 20%, chain fighter speed is lowered to 0 (because he is tied to the ship) no cooldown.
Board ship: 5% chance to convert a ship. cooldown 5 (using several merlocks chain fighters together with hold ship will make converting easier, if successful the merlock dissapears and the ship is captured.)
Bonuses: 50% sea infantry, 50% ships
Elite
Image
Cost: 5 turns
Hp: 35
Attack: 9
Range: 2
Armor : 0
P. Armor: 0
Speed: 2 (water 5)
Sight: 6
Action: 2
Spell range: 2
Spell chance: 20%
Spell resist: 0%
Special:
hold ship: enemy ships are stopped in place for 1 turn and their res spell is lowered by 20%, chain fighter speed is lowered to 0 (because he is tied to the ship) no cooldown.
Board ship: 5% chance to convert a ship. cooldown 5 (using several merlocks chain fighters together with hold ship will make converting easyer)
Bonuses: 50% sea infantry, 50% ships
Master
Image
Cost: 5 turns
Hp: 40
Attack: 10
Range: 2
Armor : 0
P. Armor: 0
Speed: 2 (water 6)
Sight: 6
Action: 2
Spell range: 2
Spell chance: 20%
Spell resist: 0%
Special:
hold ship: enemy ships are stopped in place for 1 turn and their res spell is lowered by 20%, chain fighter speed is lowered to 0 (because he is tied to the ship) no cooldown.
Board ship: 5% chance to convert a ship. cooldown 5 (using several merlocks chain fighters together with hold ship will make converting easyer),
Bonuses: 50% sea infantry, 50%

Crocodile rider:
Image
Desc: Some crazy water Goblins figured they try taming the crocodiles in their river to use as mounts. What's even more crazy? They succeeded.
Cost:5
Trains: Merlock hut
Hp:30
Atk:12
Rng:1
Sight:6
Spd:5 Land:2
Arm:2
P.arm:2
Res:20%
Abilities:
Drops goblin gutter in death.
Bonuses: Amphibious 50%, Sea infantry 100%, fish 100%

Elite Crocodile rider:
Image
Desc: These water goblins are more well trained with their crocodile mounts, they can bring more havok to the seas.
Hp:37
Atk:16
Rng:1
Sight:7
Spd:6 land:2
Arm:3
P.arm:3
Res:20%
Abilities:
Drops elite water goblin gutter on death.
Bonuses: 50% amphibious, 100% sea infantry, 100% fish

Master Crocodile rider:
Image
Desc: These water Goblins have perfected their riding with their Crocs. They truly have become a menace at sea.
Hp:44
Atk:20
Rng:1
Sight:8
Spd:7 land:2
Arm:4
P.arm:4
Res:20%
Abilities:
Drops master water goblin gutter on death.
Bonuses: 50% amphibious, 100% sea infantry, 100% fish

Water Goblin gutter:
Image
Desc: a water goblin with a sharp fish hook.
Hp:10
Atk:6
Rng:1
Sight:5
Spd:4 land:2
Arm:0
P.arm:0
Res:0%

No bonuses.

Elite Water Goblin gutter:
Image
Desc: they now have sharper fish hooks.
Hp:12
Atk:8
Rng:1
Sight:6
Spd:5 land:2
Arm:1
P.arm:1
Res:0

Master Water Goblin gutter:
Image
Desc: They are now well armoured and equip with jagged fish hooks.
Hp:16
Atk:10
Rng:1
Sight:7
Spd:6 land:2
Arm:2
P.arm:2
Res:0

Water goblin servant
Image
Cost: 2 turns
Hp: 8
Attack: 3
Range: 1
Armor : 0
P. Armor: 0
Speed: 2 (water 4)
Sight: 5
Action: 1
Mend rate: 7
Spell resist: 0%

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:53 am

I believe that we done correctly.

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Lynx Shafir
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Lynx Shafir » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:33 am

About the latest two

I don't see any point adding those 2 cost goblins when we have merlock with same cost, same bonuses and but with 2 additional abilities.


This goblins
Lower atk and sight for em with 1

Also Croc riders drop foot one so enough.


That chain fighter same
2 merlock will be better
If we remove/lover shi ship bonus of those maybe with a bit change on ability.

Since will be good only against ships I think 4 cost better.

For img looks rather a miner with pickaxe...


No covert - rather 1 turn block/slow ship
Deals minor dmg too.

I prefer an ambusher approach
Additional trap maker - one poisonous
And one reef like trap summon for ships
Or built /

Add only ability and attack without bonuses. (hook)

Stealth low speed, and no upgrades.
(human defence agints em wud be the lighthouse - uncover stealth, reefs, and sea traps)
This way becomes useful and unique unit.

For ork ship capture an other ship will be

Slaver ship - with a veteraning power.
Last edited by Lynx Shafir on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:48 am

Alright things i don't like here:
1. I don't like speed of ALL orcish living naval units. Including suggested ones. Max speed for non-cav units must be 5. For cav ones 6. Because they are amphibious units.
2. For ranged units (range is 3+) speed must be 3/3/4.
3. I don't like this converting ability.
A. It is too weak (5% chance for 5 turn cost unit is really low).
B. I don't like in general converting. Instead i can agree that this unit when it kills ships (deals final killing hit) on place of ship will spawn orcish variant. Doesn't affect undead ships and transports.
4. Too high bonuses to units. Also NO BONUSES to fish units at all. Fish units are weak by themselves.

I'll post my variants later.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:55 pm

All were based off of land variants, except chain fighter.

Speed reduction for units would be ok, but units should stay, just get modified a bit:

They must mimic the land variants only with water speed and land movement (slow)

Basically:
Water speed:3-4 like you mentioned

Land speed:2 no higher or lower.

Chain fighter: must have ability to halt/slow ships, can go down that alternate route of capturing ships.

Crocodile rider: must be aquatic variant of wolf rider, ability to drop water goblin gutter was meant to keep it unique,cost could be lowered to 4, water goblin gutter should be aquatic variant of spiker.

Ship: it would have to be something orcs could use at sea, whether orcs turn the ship into a siege boat or just something to hinder enemies on land. (Siege boat being ramming ships, fire ship)

Note: orcs also have war barge which would only carry infantry and cavalry and can allow units to act from inside.

The ship you suggested could be simply a ramming ship that can shatter through enemy defences. (I still don't like fact of units who aren't siege having bonuses to walls, it doesn't make sense and it makes siege equipment kinda pointless. E.g. Elite human fighter can knock a wall down in one hit without blacksmith upgrades, faster then imperial shielder. Taking bonuses to walls away from non siege and non giant units makes walls much more useful and some siege a lot more useful as well. I don't see how you can knock a wall down with a sword.)

Bonuses could be changed, but they were modeled after your little suggestion, I still don't like the fact that sea infantry should have bonuses to eachother, you just have everyone destroyers basically and it kinda eliminates some unit ideas, having bonuses to ships could be but small bonus could work, as for bonuses to units that should depend on what the unit is:

Warship - bonus to land units and sea infantry.

Destroyer - bonus to ships and sea giants.


That's what we were trying here:

Water goblin harpoonist - bonus to sea infantry

Merlock chain fighter - bonus to ships

Crocodile rider - bonus to sea infantry

Merlock - bonus to ships but lower then chain fighter. Bonus to buildings.

Merlock leader - basically same bonuses as the merlock.

All were based on land variants which worked in the same way.
Goblin archer: bonuses to infantry

Wolf rider: bonus to infantry, throwers, archers

Orc warrior: bonus to fortifications, bonus to buildings, bonus to megas

Orc leader:^

Merlocks already have strong enough attack to deal with the common sea infantry, they don't need bonuses to assist.

Water goblin harpoonist should have bonus to sea infantry, not ships.

If you want a different example on how this works think of it like this:

When fighting humans, who you going to use?

When fighting elves, who ya gonna use?

Humans have ships, meaning you'll use merlocks, merlock chain fighter, merlock leader

Elves have sea infantry and sea giants, meaning you'll use merlocks, water goblins, crocodile riders, and merlock leaders.

All races fall within either ships users primary, or sea creatures primary:

Humans: ships
Elves: sea creatures
Orcs: sea creatures (maybe ships)
Undead: ships and sea creatures
Dwarves: ships
Scaledfolk: ships and sea creatures

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makazuwr32
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:21 pm

I wanted to change some bonuses and stats (mainly speed). And that capture ability. Only. Everything else is nearly fine.

As for unit types:
Elves have ships as well
Orcs have ships as well
Scaledfolk instead i think must not have ships and only amphibious and sea creatures.

Also only few sea infantries won't have bonuses to others.

About units: crocodile rider can have a bit higher than others speed on land on max level.

I like design ideas but i don't like bonuses (crocodile rider has too much for example) and speed. And that exact converting ability with unreliably low chance.

I will post updated stats a bit later this year when i will finally form and calculate every naval unit.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Savra
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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by Savra » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:08 am

I did give it a little too much for bonuses.

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Re: Merlock expansion

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:54 am

Yup.
Water goblins will do 12 damage at base with your bonuses against other sea infantries and crocodile riders 24-40 damage which is waaay too much against sea infantries.

I don't get why didn't you set than 200%/500%/1000% bonuses than. It will have same op effect (alas altitude is higher).
All these units are sea infantries.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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