Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs" - IMPLEMENTED

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LordOfAles
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Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs" - IMPLEMENTED

Post by LordOfAles » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:38 am

Just as the topic title says. It breaks (Or makes harder) a lot of maps and makes a whole campaign impossible to pass.
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Typhoon » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:02 am

Humans dont start with blacksmith upgrades which hurts
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by samuelch » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:49 pm

Agree. It's unfair as well
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:52 pm

@Alexander82 can udo it? (it is configurable)

I'll try

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Savra » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:23 pm

This was mentioned before, me and Lynx Sharif made a topic of unbeatable campaign's due to this issue.
http://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=6171

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by LordOfAles » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:46 pm

That topic doesn't adress this problem directly. Other maps are unbeatable because of other "balance changes" as well.
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Savra » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:12 pm

True, but it still was an issue that was mentioned.

Back in the subject though, elves shouldn't start with blacksmith techs and dodges I agree, the ai has already proven they can research those on their own.

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by samuelch » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:20 am

This also happens in "No Techs" setting
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 181542.png
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:39 pm

I checked the jsons but I have no clue about how to solve it
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:22 am

AI Hard runs always with All techs setting (regardless of player setting)
Techs that are out of shop are considered "all techs" member, so players will get all techs that are not in shop

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Savra » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:26 am

So, change the elf blacksmith techs to match that of humans blacksmith program? Because you can get the humans one from shop too but it doesn't effect ai hard humans, maybe look into that program for the answer to the elves one? (I'm going out on a limb here and guessing this.)

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:36 am

ok please name one tech that is in shop and it still given to players in all techs so i can investigate.
thanks!

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Savra » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:40 am

All human blacksmith upgrades.

Melee weapons 1 & 2
Ranged weapons 1 & 2
Armour upgrades 1 & 2
Shield upgrades 1 & 2

Unless these have changed 3 updates later (currently I'm behind 3 again. :lol: ) that's what ai hard doesn't get for humans. They have to research it themselves.

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:52 am

ok but as these are in the shop (upgrades section) they work fine not added automatically.

or am i missing something?

we were talking about dodge techs not to be by default meaning they need to get into shop - or am i lost again? :)

to clear:
- Human tech is in shop, so they are not in the "all techs" automatism
- elven techs are not in shop meaning they are in "all techs" section (i just checked and interesting: lv1 dodge is in the shop but no other levels are in the shop! and AI probably get these lv2 lv3 levels)

ALSO important:
you can use "IS_ALL_TECH_MEMBER" on any tech to set it to be surely an all techs member (regardless of it being in shop or not) - i had to fix it as were not used "flag", however poisonous bite was set long ago.

Also i can implement the opposite too: "IS_NOT_ALL_TECH_MEMBER" meaning it will be not added when "all techs" added regardless of shop part or not.

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:22 am

whatever i made these

IS_ALL_TECH_MEMBER, //if a tech that needs to be in "all techs" section - meaning the it is a DEFAULT tech (despite it is in upgrades section)
IS_NOT_ALL_TECH_MEMBER, //if a tech that needs NOT to be in "all techs" section - meaning the it is not a DEFAULT tech (despite it is NOT in upgrades section)

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:23 am

Last one will be perfect for it and will solve problem with elven techs.

By the way: despite the fact that both treetop archery techs are presented in shop one of them is always automatically researched for for elven ai.
Same thing with ent toughness.
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Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:26 am

"researched"? it does not affect how AI researches!
only affects "starting techs"

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:36 am

Btw guys I think that in "all techs" we should include actually all techs (even upgrades and shop one).

For example a orcish AI still send you tier 1 units against you and in all techs games orc players don't get much because they only have those.
Maybe we should get at least 2 options

(all no upgrade techs) and (all techs including upgrade)

I guess that a real all techs game should really give everything researched to allow players to fight at maximum strength from the beginning
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:44 am

i see but i dont plan code modification on game setup sheet (already too many options)

upgrades are excluded and i think because of hard AI, would be too hard having top level units at first place however a newbie player has totally nothing, enough shock to them that AI has lv1 units that he does not even own moreover(!) he does not even know of their existance :)

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:47 am

Well... In case of elves it is already like that.

A nee player should just not choose AI hard 😂
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:47 am

i have not ment "random" games, but campaign maps.

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:49 am

I see. In campaigns you generally are given what you need though.
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:12 am

not really, also already have many complaints about hard ai phenomenon

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Savra » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:23 pm

Alexander82 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:49 am
I see. In campaigns you generally are given what you need though.
Most campaign maps involving elves before the blacksmith upgrades came out were essentially broken after that addition. That made a lot of gems inaccessible.

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by LordOfAles » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:53 pm

Unknown Raid, for example.
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:15 pm

with the new options it can be removed to be deafult for AI @Alexander82 can u make it?

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:41 pm

So I just need to put IS_NOT_ALL_TECH_MEMBER in tech trnSpecUnitAction?
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:55 pm

yes, and he tech will surely be not in for AI and for ALL techs game case.

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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:57 pm

Ok.

In next will be in
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Re: Remove Elven Blacksmith And Dodge Upgrades From "All Techs"

Post by LordOfAles » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 pm

Set as IMPLEMENTED?
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