Orc Balance - ANSWERED

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LordOfAles
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Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by LordOfAles » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:47 pm

https://www.androidutils.com/forum/view ... 667dbab829

Alexander...before locking this topic, why? A civilized discussion can't be done? I got a warning for...making flames? If you took it like that, i'm pretty sorry i guess, but that was just criticism. Orcs just have to be downed to scale of other races, FOR time being.
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Re: Orc Balance

Post by Puss_in_Boots » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:50 pm

Wow this all escalated while I was petting my dogs.
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Re: Orc Balance

Post by Patrol3110 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:50 pm

You got a warning for suggesting balance, being denied and shut down for no good reason? Since when is this forum not democratic? Did so much really change over 1 year?
You cannot deny the will of the people forever

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Re: Orc Balance

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:53 pm

I already answered the topic. It is not gonna change anything.

I already got feedback with players I cooperate with and we are correcting issues.

That should be a satisfying answer.

The changes you have made won't be implemented because are part of a plan so there is no point on discussing any further that topic.

Also the final answers were you used words like idiotic and retarded showed that there are no premises for a civil discussions.

I hope this time you get this is the final answer
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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by LordOfAles » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:54 pm

Well then, so much for democracy.
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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:51 pm

Please chill out yourselfes, and talk to each other patiently and nicely.

Yes, this is democratic forum and anyone can tell any of their ideas, exception is: insulting or upsetting the other.
that is not a good way imho.

So please correct any insulting words to nicer ones, be objective and dont use hurting words on others work. Dont forget here people are working hard on the game to get better and better, and if you use a not-nice word on their work that will hurt them.

also dont forget the game is under balancing so there can be issues temporarily, you can also post it if u like to draw attention, but dont expect immediate change because maybe other ways was planned to change things or bring balance:
for example: you ask for nerfing something, but the plan is eg. buffing all others (result is the same = balance) but in different way (it was just a theoretical example).
Also dont forget you can be "wrong" with your idea, so maybe tests will be needed: ideas:
1. random games betw. 2 player changing races, about 2-2 games. (tedious but can show something)
2. easier: make some prepared mapeditor map, with preplaced units to play and we can try which side wins - faster way but wiser map setup needed.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:09 pm

You can talk here about Orc balance if you have many forumer think same we will make the "test" things to show their Op-ness.
Topic will not be locked
Please use nice talkings - thanks!

(remark: Please not Remove CLOSED/IMPLEMENTED/ANSWERED flags those are for easy knowing the status of a topic, but you still can talk on that thread despite of its status)

thanks!

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Savra » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:25 pm

I actually tried Uruks against other races elites, they lost at tier 3 even with ologhai. That seems pretty balanced to me and most the others didn't even have upgrades or weren't even using their abilities.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by DreJaDe » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:54 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:51 pm
Please chill out yourselfes, and talk to each other patiently and nicely.

Yes, this is democratic forum and anyone can tell any of their ideas, exception is: insulting or upsetting the other.
that is not a good way imho.

So please correct any insulting words to nicer ones, be objective and dont use hurting words on others work. Dont forget here people are working hard on the game to get better and better, and if you use a not-nice word on their work that will hurt them.

also dont forget the game is under balancing so there can be issues temporarily, you can also post it if u like to draw attention, but dont expect immediate change because maybe other ways was planned to change things or bring balance:
for example: you ask for nerfing something, but the plan is eg. buffing all others (result is the same = balance) but in different way (it was just a theoretical example).
Also dont forget you can be "wrong" with your idea, so maybe tests will be needed: ideas:
1. random games betw. 2 player changing races, about 2-2 games. (tedious but can show something)
2. easier: make some prepared mapeditor map, with preplaced units to play and we can try which side wins - faster way but wiser map setup needed.
The problem is, he's locking topics with just one answer. He's the only one satisfied with his answer.

This is supposed to be a democratic forum base from you Stratego. But, shut downing a conversation without clear answer is just harsh. He did answer him completely but in a different topic, LOL.

Plus that "idiotic" word that is used is not from LordOfAles. He didn't even read who's the sender. He can say that he didn't state any names but we all know who he's pertaining to.


Also fighting with just the elite won't make it equal. You have to fight with the everything they got to make it really equal. Starting units, starting skirmish, etc...

Even I have to make things so favorable to me in order win against stratego (elf vs orc). And still with that, I almost lost.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:26 pm

Of course I've read who wrote it and the word "you" is actually used also to address multiple persons.

I locked the topic because after having given a complete answer that explained clearly what was the direction toward the game implementation is going to proceed the topic creator removed the "ANSWERED" tag and both of you and him used offensive words in your next replies.

I want to make clear that I am not required to make you satisfied with an answer to actually put the "ANSWERED" tag.
That tag was put there simply because there were reasons for the problems you were pointing and the request of multiple changes to the game simply was unacceptable.

You might like it or not but that's the answer to that topic. Removing the tag and using harsh words doesn't change reality as there is a plan that can be liked or not but that we are continuing to stick with.

Feel free to continue your experience the way you prefer.
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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by DreJaDe » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:49 am

Since nothing can be done here, I would not go further in this topic.

But I still think nerf for a short term is needed till all your mod's updates/what you want to add to make it balanced is added. Since this is a growing game I know that you'll balance things when all what you all Mods want is added but for the meantime is there no reconsideration for this topic and the Nerf? If I remember correctly there's already a nerf given to some orc units like the Bat rider, Minotour and the torch guy.

Ive read stratego likes fast update even if the changes is small so to conclude, it is possible but I'm just the a lowly commoner here so maybe I don't know what I'm saying.

Just a reminder, please point out the names and not just use You or Him. It causes misunderstanding like what Alexander's latest reply in this topic. I still think I'm one of the person you Alexander (the @names doesn't work for me) pertains when you mention that you and him.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:42 am

ok, please
- list all things you think op (lets start with a few most important units if u can point out units)
- topic will not be locked
- please ask other forumers ideas on it (if they all see that unit is op)
- if seems mostly feels op than it will surely be changed some way!
- if needed we need to make test cases/mini maps to prove this or that way

if all results that it seems op than it will surely change some way

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:14 am

Few insider info so you won't pointing things which already would be changed anyway so you won't point that again:

1. All casters will get tiers. And specifically troll shaman will be albe to summon only drake on tier 1. Dragon will become availible on tier 2 and wyrm on tier 3 (but you will still be able to summon previous variants). Also troll shaman will gain increased cost and regeneration 100% spell will be moved to other 4 turn caster.
Maybe alao those summons will have increased cooldowns at base which will become lower with each tier (for example at tier 1 (random numbers) drake summoning will have 5 turns cooldown, on tier 2 4 and on tier 3 3).

2. Other races also will have good siege units. Humans will gain tiers and techs for their siege and elves will gain ent with better range.

3. About pikers: we can't remove them yet from sacrifices because that will require to list all possible targets for sacrifice. All orcish units exept pikers at least. Maybe also all other races' units as well.
We asked Stratego to add possibility to exclude some categories from availible targets for spells though and now that depends on him.

And please do not suggest for now any changes for buildings because we will after undeads probably overhaul all buildings of all ready races.

In general, @LordOfAles i must admit that those changes you suggested are more like cosmetic if compared to what we are planning or just "changes because i said so" with no explanation (in case of all ranged units you mentioned and master ettin.

About master ettin there were 2 variants: either actions/turn increase with each tier (so 4 actions at tier 3) or current stats; also ettin is supposed to be the biggest giant unit for now so it is fair for it to gain range 3 at tier 3).

About ranged units:
Uruk archer lore-wise is on pair with best human archers and thus no stats changes for it;
Rock hurler is maybe too powerful for now but we will update other races' siege as well so to not change it twice (nerf and undo nerf) no changes will be made;
Javelin thrower is fine;
Goblin archer is supposed to be better in terms of range than orc throwers so no changes to its range (or otherwise it is underused);
Troll axe thrower is supposed to be on pair with elves in terms of ranged combat and its main rival is quick archer thus same max range and just a bit higher attack.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am

And another note:
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change.
"Because i said so", "because it is op" and so on arguments won't count.

Put some numbers, some compare what other races have to counter and so on. Put some real information why it should be done.

I also made same mistake before (and also with orcs by the way) so i know what i am talking about.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:18 am

DreJaDe wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:49 am
If I remember correctly there's already a nerf given to some orc units like the Bat rider, Minotour and the torch guy.
Those were not temporary nerf.

Minotaur abilities were meant to grow (most of things were made to be scaled with leling of units) but for technical reason we often couldnt. Even currently many abilities need the changes only our dev, @Stratego (dev) can do.

In other case we simply try in game for a while things and check them (i.e. the orc dragons that will be tiered along with leveled spellcasters were already under observation and we had decided to add starting cooldown and rethink both cost of spellcaster and spell list)

As we were talking I was already implementing dwarven techs (that will be in in next version, thanks to @Savra's images that made my work faster).

About other issues we simply found different solutions that required the expansion in a certain direction of some races (e.g. elven have now throwers and their melee can handle those of the other races if used correctly).

So there is no point in undoing work when we are adding new content every day and we need finalized material to test races vs races and plan balance solutions that make the game interesting with different playstyles for every races to avoid making every single one a reskin of the others.
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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:27 am

Savra as for me is third best forum member after Alexander82 and General Brave.
He makes great images and the work he made on scalefolks (even before we started planning them) is actually awesome.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by DreJaDe » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:19 am

I won't go further with that busy thing since we all know all are busy.

Do I have to specify in specified manner? Or just an estimate is enough?

For example
Rock hurler (just the 1st tier) can instantly destroy Great Tree and Mansion. So I think, either a change in stat for either the Rock Hurler or the said building is needed.
Just this

Or
(Insert the stated problem above)
Since they can get the spell "Orc Strength". I suggest reducing rock hurlers damage to:
14
19
24

I already know the ongoing plan of changes for the HP of building but since it's still not final...

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:48 am

Tier 1 rock hurler actually deals only 420 damage to megas if not count armor. It is not one hit kill.

I think later we will polish bonuses on rock hurler.

As for reasoning - for me at least that is fine so i for example can answer to your arguments or agree with them.
In case of first example i answer that they are not one-shotting megas (also we want to remove bonuses to megas and make them count in terms of bonuses to them as fortifications).

Ofc for me estimate manner is better though. If compare rock hurler to trebushet rock hurler tier 1 deals 420 damage to megas while trebushet 410. Tier 3 alas deals 630 damage.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by DreJaDe » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:07 am

I do suggest for you to test it. I did a retest just to make sure I'm not stating something from my imagination and it really did one shot a mansion. I was wrong with great tree though. They have the same HP so I thought it would receive the same dmg.

Like I said Rock Hurler can be casted the spell of "Orc's Strength". Please consider that if you have forgotten...

Though I would like to say this is just an example but one shotting a Mansion shouldn't happen if you ask me.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:24 am

Exactly tier 1 pure rock hurler doesn't oneshot even mansion. I don't count buffing and debuffing it.
If you count it with buff than also count that undeads can fear it many-many times to negate buff.
Tier 2 and 3 alas oneshot it.
And that is why we want to remove special bonuses to megas along with updating all buildings.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:30 am

Wr already consider buildings too easy to destroy.

In general all races should have proper siege units and use them to take down buildings efficiently.
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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:00 am

Alexander82 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:30 am
Wr already consider buildings too easy to destroy.

In general all races should have proper siege units and use them to take down buildings efficiently.
Indeed. That is why
1. We want to overall increase hp of all buildings (maybe with exeption of 1-2 megas);
2. We want to remove bonus to megas and count them as fortifications (and that means for example in case of our rock hurler that it will deal only 220 damage to them on tier 1 and 330 damage on tier 3. And even with all possible orcish buffs - +12 to attack in total - only 462 damage on tier 3.)
3. We want to remake bonus to buildings and fortifications for non-siege, non-giant anti-building units like infantries, fire archers and axe throwers so that they will deal significantly less damage to them and to make siege as main demolisher unit type against buildings (and giants as second main unit type in some cases alas they still should do less damage than siege).
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by DreJaDe » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:06 am

I'm done with this. Lol

You don't consider buff and debuff? Why? Max dmg is always should be considered.

Debuff a 10 tiles far unit?

Like many mods said, Rock Hurler is a late game unit, clearly it has back ups like what a human would do with their trebuchet.

It's not a catapult spam that is disposable.

Just made my argument to help LordOfAles to be given a chance in this.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:14 am

Actually... Humans now can trebushet spam...

But as i said we are going go firstly introduce new mechanic for buildings (hp, armor, cost and such) and after we will look onto siege: how powerful is it and what changes should be made.

And in my post above i have calculated max possible damage output if count all possible buffs for current tier 3 rock hurler against fortifications and it is 462 per hit.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by DreJaDe » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:39 am

This is really hard....

But I'll still try for the last time

This time I would specify

Test in the map creation in the settings

Put a 1st tier rock Hurler in the map

An Orc shaman near the Rock hurler

Then an enemy Mansion in range for the Rock hurler

Play the game/map

Buff the Hurler with orc strength

Destroy the mansion in one turn.

Yey, finish.

Calculation is okay but testing it is the real way.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:44 am

I already did it, dre.
I know result.

And i am saying that we will improve all buildings, fortifications and megas (with exeption of maybe dwarven and human megas) amd that we are going to remove bonus againt megas from all units. Completely. They will count as another fortification.

And bonus to fortifications on the same rock hurler is 1000% unlike 2000% to megas.

Understand?

This change among with planned stats increase for all buildings, fortifications and megas will result in that there won't be any one-shotting megas anymore. Even weakest ones.
Last edited by makazuwr32 on Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:48 am

In latest version trebuchet can be built through workers so you can have more than you would normally produce by just planning your production strategy.

Ents will have a similar way to obtain large amount of units without beian excessive burden on production but avoiding spamming. Current worker will be replaced by the already implemented elven worker while ent's one function will change becoming a sproutling that can grow into buildings or adult ents with a cooldowned transformation.

Rock hurler is made to deal at base the same damage of trebuchet but while it can be powered by buffs the other can be made by workers exceeding the production limits of tcs and factories. The fact that you can save peoduction on a unit while you can do it for the respective units of other races is a way to balance other featurea like it being affected by buffs.

Btw, the fact that it has lower bonus but higher damage than trebuchet depends on the fact it has buffs available.

If it was 10 with 2000% bonus the buffs themselves would be increased twice compared to current 1000% bonus
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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by LordOfAles » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:34 pm

If you're that intent on not scaling the units to be on par with other races' current ones then what about slower but bigger updates that focus on other races?
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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:06 pm

We are doing that. Main work for now is focused on dwarves to make them as full race.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Orc Balance - ANSWERED

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 pm

LordOfAles wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:34 pm
If you're that intent on not scaling the units to be on par with other races' current ones then what about slower but bigger updates that focus on other races?
A unit can be on par in different way witg another.

A unit that can only be produced will be better than a unit of the same cost that can be obtained in other ways (resulting in more of that units compared to the first).

It is the same concept of reanimatable undeads that can be produced freely instead of actually paying tc production. It is obvious they can't have the edge compared to units of the same cost.

Dwarves, for example, will have a worse stat-cost ratio than other races but will have their specific ways to gain a lot of extra production.
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