some rebalancing for the orc dragon - ARCHIVED

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Alexander82
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some rebalancing for the orc dragon - ARCHIVED

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:00 am

Lately i've played against some orc players (general brave was one of them) and noticed that the orc dragon is too strong in the early part of the game.

The strength do not come from the unit itself (it is not stronger than other orc units) but from the fact you can summon it very fast in the early part of the game.

Being a flying unit it is almost impossible to handle unless you are an orc using the same tactic since archers need to act in mass to kill dragons (that's not a problem since dragons are meant to be powerful).

I suggest to add a cooldown to the spell and make freshly created troll shamans start with the cooldown already activated.

Otherwise we might add a tech and make the spell appear only after the research.

What do you think?
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:00 am

I'd suggest the tech approach. And while we're at it, remove the sacrifice requirement, give it cooldown 5, vanishing 5. That makes it more in line with other summons, and removes the balancing act some other suggestions have had around it. Also, get rid of the control difficulty. Waypoints just bypass it anyway, so all it does is confuse new players.
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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:34 am

I'm not for the vanishing cause it would make it the only dragon with it. Maybe sacrifice a single unit+tech+higher cooldown.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by StormSaint373 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:24 pm

I find Alexander's claim to be viable. I agree!
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Constantin
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Constantin » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:33 pm

In fact, undeads are good against dragon, if you use mummies, banshe and one or more lich. The main problem of this unit appeared when he received a 2 power range. It easy way to destroy several units. Especially against vulnerable elfs rangers. Yes, and at the beginning of the game on short maps, one such dragon can destroy your entire base. Adding coldown+tech would be reasonable.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by LordOfAles » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:33 pm

Tech 5 cost with 5 cooldown no vanishing?
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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:12 pm

I'd make tech cost 8 at the shaman's hut (so you actually need some efforts with a specific building), cooldown 6, 1 sacrifice (you cast on the unit and on its place you obtain the dragon) no vanishing and no uncontrollable (since you can already go around that).

It is basically a great way to trade a low cost unit for a dragon but this way it wouldn't be exploitable for changing your whole army and it would make it not fit for early attacks.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:15 pm

a tech dependancy is a good way to remove the usability from the first turns (and tech in a shaman hut kind of building gives extra "turns")

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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:00 pm

Yes, but even later can be abused to have a swarm of dragons in 2 turns. When you have a good amount of them they are still difficult to kill withouth a swarm of giants or a whole rmy of ranged units. I think we need a cooldown but we might even that downside with a reduction of sacrifices.

The spell might become this way:

You click the spell
You choose a unit in range (it shall be the sacrifice)
The dragon is summoned over the clicked unit
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:33 pm

ok, i will wait for the final suggestion of the change.

(ps: currently you can not select the unit to be sacrificed)

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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:22 pm

Yes cause you put the units near the shaman. If we reduce the sacrifices to 1 it makes more sense to add a target imho.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:47 am

we already have units with spell additional cost to sacrifice 1 unit. but yes would be cool, and no i will not have time nowadays to implement it :)

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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:45 am

Ok, can you simply add a tech with cost 8, add a cooldown 6, remove the "not controllable" part (since is just annoying) and reduce the required sacrifice to 1 ?
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:21 am

But Orcs will get down with this,Cmon' just think.We should not give it 8 cost and 6 cooldown.That will be too much.Isn't it?The part that it is uncontrollable is good enough,atleast,somehow,players who don't know will not get to that.
So sorry,I don't agree with researching a tech and a fresh Troll Shaman having cooldown from start.It will really give players who love orcs a huge disadvantage.
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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:00 am

You should trust me, I've made most of what orcs are today and that Dragon is too exploitable.

I generally don't like nerfing units and that's why I'd go mostly with making them more difficult to obtain.

The other way would be nerfing the dragon (and making the unit useless).

Changing the orc as i suggest could make it more useful in the long run and less exploitable in the beginning.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:26 pm

Might be,but we should make it in a way such that it doesn't become very costly,well it should not ask for cooldown,and no tech.So,8 turns,which is practically more sensible.
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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:09 pm

8 turns what?

Orc dragons have no real turn cost since they are summoned.

We simply need to move dragons in the mid part of a game
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:10 am

Where will we research it?Tcs,maybe?
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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:50 am

I was thinking the shaman's hut
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by LordOfAles » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:43 am

Agreed with shaman hut. Would make it more useful
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Ayush Tiwari
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:18 am

Ok.I think that sounds correct.But something still disagrees me.That is,neither of the summoning takes cooldown.
So I am not saying that you don't give it a cooldown.But bring some less cooldown.Like 4 turns.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by LordOfAles » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:19 am

Cooldown is not a problem if you have plenty of troll shamans
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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:55 pm

We can try with 4 then. It seems reasonable after all.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:08 am

Alexander82 wrote:We can try with 4 then. It seems reasonable after all.
Ok!Now my vote is with you.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Midonik » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:46 pm

Give. It. 4. Turn. Vashining.
Getting it in 6 turn is op.
NERF please.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:13 pm

I'm seeing you are getting desperate, but it doesn't matter. Even if it has Vanishing and cool down, it won't stop me doing it.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:14 pm

Anyways they are pretty easy to kill, mostly from my experience.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:54 am

I dont think dragons should vanish.Otherwise it would be a racism(race) :D with orcs.

Also,cooldown is a bit more better,to avoid them from swarming.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Midonik » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:24 am

Ok,8 turn cool down sounds good.
Or 8 turn tech to get it.
Or 4 turn tech and 4 turn cool down.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by makazuwr32 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:30 am

I suggest for 4 cost Research of Dragon in shaman hut and 5 (at least) turns for cooldown of summon spell for it.
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Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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