Archers do not shoot through walls

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desatixix
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Archers do not shoot through walls

Post by desatixix » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:09 pm

I propose to make sure that archers do not shoot through walls and similar obstacles, as this is unfair.
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Alexander82
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:34 pm

I agree with that, I think we might rebalance them in terms of damage if their sight/ragne was e limited by walls and mountains
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desatixix
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by desatixix » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:01 pm

Do you think this will be realized soon?
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desatixix
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by desatixix » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:04 pm

The question immediately arises of how difficult it will be to do, because not all obstacles interfere with shooting, for example, he can shoot through small stones or bushes, but through trees, for example, with a chance of miss
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Alexander82
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:39 pm

@Stratego (dev) was generally against that while I liked more the idea of a more strategical use of walls

I think we should be able to have both internal walls, mountains and towers/megas (that in maps that are underground or inside a building makes impossible to see/shoot through), normal walls (they should probably give a reduction of range and miss chance when shooting across a wall), trees and small objects (maybe just a miss chance to shot through but in case of trees some units like wood elves, rangers and in general forest dwellers might have a reduced penalty compared to others).
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Ragnar » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:17 pm

Alexander82 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:39 pm
@Stratego (dev) was generally against that while I liked more the idea of a more strategical use of walls

I think we should be able to have both internal walls, mountains and towers/megas (that in maps that are underground or inside a building makes impossible to see/shoot through), normal walls (they should probably give a reduction of range and miss chance when shooting across a wall), trees and small objects (maybe just a miss chance to shot through but in case of trees some units like wood elves, rangers and in general forest dwellers might have a reduced penalty compared to others).
why not, you can enter for the walls to preserve physics and it will be more interesting

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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:20 pm

it was based on AOE/AOK where yrchers couls shoot over everything - also in real life you can shoot over a wall (shooting high angles)

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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:51 pm

You can shot but you can't see what you're shooting at.

They could just hope to hit something (that is different from aiming and hitting what you see).
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:05 pm

exactly: they "hoped", i read articles and eg. few thousand logbowmen in battelfields shot TONNES! of arrows to enemy without actually aiming on them - simply a mass of arrows - resulting tonnes of wood from the air.

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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:12 am

yess, that works when you actually have a ton of archers all aiming the same area, also when aiming behind an obstacle that stops sight the chance to hit someone goes definitely down
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Savra
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Savra » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:33 am

(This would be simpler if they just brought back the miss chance :lol: )

Archers aren't always going to hit their mark even if they have a direct line of sight either, possibly if we made it so that the farther away the target is the harder it is to hit it, for example:

2-4 rng, 100% hit
5-6 rng, 80% hit
7 and up rng, 50% hit

The farther the target, the harder to hit.

If we do the obstacles thing then certain obstacles and terrain would have to block it entirely, while others grant a negative to accuracy, plus units within certain terrain would need to have an evasion bonus. Basically you'll need to make a whole new level of code just to compensate.

We could however, make it so terrain such as forests grant units a 10% dodge range bonus to units within, if you don't want your units to be such easy targets for archers then make an effect like obstruction or something were the walls have a chance of taking the arrow instead of the units behind.

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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by DreJaDe » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:05 am

I think this would really make Archers so weak so if this is implemented I will suggest a buff for the archers which would let them 1 shot a unit for a low chance like 2%.

Not being able to see over terrain is okay but If this is done then I would also suggest that they would have a targeting marks to the range they can't see. Like a random targeting shot (if they are still in range of archers). SEEMS USELESS but strategically, maybe useful

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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:33 am

Savra wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:33 am
(This would be simpler if they just brought back the miss chance :lol: )

Archers aren't always going to hit their mark even if they have a direct line of sight either, possibly if we made it so that the farther away the target is the harder it is to hit it, for example:

2-4 rng, 100% hit
5-6 rng, 80% hit
7 and up rng, 50% hit

The farther the target, the harder to hit.

If we do the obstacles thing then certain obstacles and terrain would have to block it entirely, while others grant a negative to accuracy, plus units within certain terrain would need to have an evasion bonus. Basically you'll need to make a whole new level of code just to compensate.

We could however, make it so terrain such as forests grant units a 10% dodge range bonus to units within, if you don't want your units to be such easy targets for archers then make an effect like obstruction or something were the walls have a chance of taking the arrow instead of the units behind.
i try to avoid any miss chance like things or randomnesses

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desatixix
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by desatixix » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:08 am

But then you can make sure that they do not shoot through the walls, and the range decreases through the trees? (With trees other than elves)
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:56 am

i have not planned to make such - i try to stick to AOE/AOK basics in this matter.

the only exception could be that "in dungeon" like maps. where the "wall" is from floor to ceiling.

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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by godOfKings » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:20 pm

in dungeon like map, we could use trigger to reduce sight of archer to same as infantry, wat about a new global stat changing effect that will affect all units of selected object type belonging to selected player (including new units produced later on in game by said player) may b its off topic though :)
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Savra » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:47 pm

The archers would still shoot any units within range despite not being able to see them, but I guess it technically counts as shooting blindly.

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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:57 pm

Savra wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:33 am
(This would be simpler if they just brought back the miss chance :lol: )

Archers aren't always going to hit their mark even if they have a direct line of sight either, possibly if we made it so that the farther away the target is the harder it is to hit it, for example:

2-4 rng, 100% hit
5-6 rng, 80% hit
7 and up rng, 50% hit

The farther the target, the harder to hit.
I totally agree with the concept
Savra wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:33 am

If we do the obstacles thing then certain obstacles and terrain would have to block it entirely, while others grant a negative to accuracy, plus units within certain terrain would need to have an evasion bonus. Basically you'll need to make a whole new level of code just to compensate.

We could however, make it so terrain such as forests grant units a 10% dodge range bonus to units within, if you don't want your units to be such easy targets for archers then make an effect like obstruction or something were the walls have a chance of taking the arrow instead of the units behind.
that might be a possibility
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:59 pm

DreJaDe wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:05 am
Not being able to see over terrain is okay but If this is done then I would also suggest that they would have a targeting marks to the range they can't see. Like a random targeting shot (if they are still in range of archers). SEEMS USELESS but strategically, maybe useful
what do you mean?
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:59 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:56 am
i have not planned to make such - i try to stick to AOE/AOK basics in this matter.

the only exception could be that "in dungeon" like maps. where the "wall" is from floor to ceiling.
that is definitely needed, the chance of shooting and seeing over an internal wall is terrible xD
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by DreJaDe » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:57 am

Alexander82 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:59 pm
DreJaDe wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:05 am
Not being able to see over terrain is okay but If this is done then I would also suggest that they would have a targeting marks to the range they can't see. Like a random targeting shot (if they are still in range of archers). SEEMS USELESS but strategically, maybe useful
what do you mean?
What I mean is that, if they are still in range they can hit it.
Ex. Archer range is 9 at max then let say their sight is just 6 or blocked, then they would have that target marks (the target marks when they are attacking enemy) on the place they couldn't see to act like a random shooting.

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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by desatixix » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:49 am

Perhaps the fog of war appears behind the walls and the archers do not see anything? Then they will not need to change their range and damage. But if, for example, the infantry passes behind the wall, and there is an enemy, then when choosing your archer the visibility disappears again? :idea:
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:39 am

DreJaDe wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:57 am
Alexander82 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:59 pm
DreJaDe wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:05 am
Not being able to see over terrain is okay but If this is done then I would also suggest that they would have a targeting marks to the range they can't see. Like a random targeting shot (if they are still in range of archers). SEEMS USELESS but strategically, maybe useful
what do you mean?
What I mean is that, if they are still in range they can hit it.
Ex. Archer range is 9 at max then let say their sight is just 6 or blocked, then they would have that target marks (the target marks when they are attacking enemy) on the place they couldn't see to act like a random shooting.
I had proposed something similar to Daniel some time ago, it was like having a higher max range but a lower perfect range so you had, for example, range 2-5/6 with 100% hit chance and range 5/6-12 with progressively increasing miss chance
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:43 am

desatixix wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:49 am
Perhaps the fog of war appears behind the walls and the archers do not see anything? Then they will not need to change their range and damage. But if, for example, the infantry passes behind the wall, and there is an enemy, then when choosing your archer the visibility disappears again? :idea:
I would like that you simply can' t target a unit behind a cover or you can target it with miss chance (it would be awesome if cover % was shown on target) especially when playing in maps with no fog (it would be strange to have fogs only behind the walls and mountains).

anyway I think some things would require a bit of reasoning when units and walls are not perfectly alligned (in what cases are the walls providing cover?).
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Re: Archers are wrong!

Post by patroid » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:16 pm

Hi,
First of all it could be nice sometimes if ranged units were gutted like that and would give alot more importance to structures and maps
and alot more possibilities to protect weak units with 'tanks' but on the other hand it would make games take way longer then they already do.
i personally barely ver finished a map in under a month of time (online multiplayer) ad i dont wanna have to spend half a year on one map now caus ranged units (not only archers but also trebs and catapults etc.) cant target what i want them to allowing the enemy to stall my advance even more caus he put worker behind wall so i will NEVER EVER deal enough dmg to the wall to actually destroy it and shoot the worker or similar strategys like that. It would just make games take much longer and change the entire game as a hole, maybe someone can do a modded vdersion and try it out there but i dont see such change benefit the game. Caus walls are cheap af and tank alot of dmg in the early stages it would make stalling the game so much simpler and buff worker spam to an unthinkable lvl caus you could just but 3 or 4 rows deep walls and workers and simply rebuild a wall or repair it when its dmged/destroyed.

patroid

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Re: Archers do not shoot through walls

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:03 pm

@patroid I understand your concern but I don't really think that game would really slow down. The game would just require players to switch to different strategies and would give a lot more importance to siege units.

About walls being cheap and fast to make is basically for their current uselessness. With such a change both archers damage and maybe range would require a boost (the entity of that depends on what kind of solution we come up with) and at the same time buildings construction time should increase as well (cause they would become more worthy to build).
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Re: Archers do not shoot through walls

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:53 pm

@Stratego (dev) I was also thinking another possibility that would remove randomness

What about a progressive damage reduction based on obstacles?

The more obstacles between a ranged unit and his target the lower the damage that target gets.

That would also give more sense into moving units in formation and would allow to defend fragile casters behind heavy units and fortifications.

Also siege units should not be (or be less affected) by all penalties of that kind (as they are made to hit very far targets)
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