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Knights in wagons

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:15 am
by Stratego (dev)
optionon request:

i see that melee infantry is a little underused (except pikeman/halberd) one of the reasons can be that they are slow, so need wagons, and why would i use infantry if i can use knights in wagons instead.

what about forbidding the entering to wagons by cavalry units?

(Coolguy supports the idea)

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:30 am
by tamtam12345
That's a big change.
It can be good or bad... :roll:
Adv:more players use units(except cavalry units)so more straregy may appear.
Stronger in melee infantry.
Disadv:Cavalry more difficult to defence/assault because of losing mobility.
Little stronger in (archer/siege units)

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:40 am
by Detros
Daniel (the dev) wrote:optionon request:
why would i use infantry if i can use knights in wagons instead
Because you can have twice as many infantry in the same time. While cavalry is good against other units, infantry is usually the best against buildings.

If you want to see infantry used more often rather try to raise the usage of defensive buildings first.

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:06 pm
by Dan301002
I see it may be good. Not like i ever used the cavalry on wagon anyway, and they already had high mobility, why would they need to be in wagons.
For some player it may be a bad thing.

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:20 pm
by Puss_in_Boots
I have only done this one time, but why not? It's not very realistic, never used it for elephants either. :lol:

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:46 pm
by Detros
Dan301002 wrote:Not like i ever used the cavalry on wagon anyway, and they already had high mobility, why would they need to be in wagons. For some player it may be a bad thing.
It is valid way. Especially on bigger maps the speed with which you can deliver reinforcements to the front line can be very important. So why not to speed up cavalry if you have a space in your wagons? And if you don't have space you better get more wagons soon.

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:25 pm
by tamtam12345
I always use this skill to attack/Defence.When enemy is faster than me to get a town,I always use wagon to carry cavalry(eg .Mongol horseman and lancer) to shoot light cal.It always success. :lol:

I expect more players will use archer unit and siege unit because it is hard and not worth to use more Knights for exchanging.

Maybe add a effect?Movement of cavalry units -1 in that turn when it comes out from the wagon?

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:38 pm
by Dan301002
tamtam12345 wrote:I always use this skill to attack/Defence.When enemy is faster than me to get a town,I always use wagon to carry cavalry(eg .Mongol horseman and lancer) to shoot light cal.It always success. :lol:

I expect more players will use archer unit and siege unit because it is hard and not worth to use more Knights for exchanging.

Maybe add a effect?Movement of cavalry units -1 in that turn when it comes out from the wagon?
Still quite not solve it really.
Just make wagons unusable with cavalry like battering rams. Realistically speaking wagons are carried by horses, cavalry coming out from wagons are terrifying (?) in real life, especially in Medieval Era. :lol:

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:20 pm
by DoomCarrot
I don't see anyting wrong with cavalry in wagons honestly, but I don't think it would be bad to make it impossible either.

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:01 pm
by COOLguy
I support the change. I think it makes sense logically (We have troop transport wagons in the game). I don't think that it will unbalance the game either

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:05 am
by godOfKings
Actually I don't support because for me sometimes putting cavalry in wagon is extremely useful in defending cause I can easily reach far away sieges that are protected by pikes, even if my knights die if I can destroy the sieges in one turn its totally worth it so please don't implement this idea... It will be near impossible for come back without cavalry wagon combo

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:07 am
by godOfKings
Although it is possible to use omni but keeping this combo is also useful sometimes

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:47 pm
by DoomCarrot
I think the main problem GodofKings, inmo, is the MASSIVE range that a wagon+hussar/knight combo can reach.

On maps such as 25x25, such a combo can get halfway across the map in a single turn. This makes it very hard to make strategic maneuvers that have any significant impact, especially if it is a mostly land map. It is disappointing to spend 5 turns planning a surprise attack on a far away tc that could change the game if it catches your opponent off guard, only to have him/her come flying in with some spare wagons and cavalry to meet it the next turn. It sort of takes away from the element of strategy and out-planning your opponent when everything can be countered so easily/quickly, and eventually many games come down to "who can wagon-knight spam the hardest/fastest."

Wagons would still be extremely useful and even mandatory for most playstyles, as they would still carry around siege weapons and infantry, both of which have painfully slow move, especially on larger maps.

Just my two cents on why this should be implemented. Fixing mending ships fixed ship-spamming, so I don't see why fixing wagons wouldn't fix wagoknight spamming :)

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:06 pm
by godOfKings
But then how do u propose destroying opponent sieges without using Ur siege it is impossible for knight to reach a siege without the siege atking it first and pikes can kill knights in one hit late game

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:09 pm
by godOfKings
A knight-wagon combo costs 8 turns too so this is a viable strategy against sieges becoming too op in my opinion , I once did a comeback with the same strategy so I can't accept this

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:13 pm
by godOfKings
And also if an opponent can't counter a knight-wagon combo and watches his surprise attack get foiled then it is the opponents' fault for not considering the possibility of such a attack . y should such a beautiful strategy get the punishment instead?

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:18 pm
by godOfKings
And no, no one spams knight wagon when pikes kill them in one hit, its catapult and trebuchet( and battering rams may be) that are overused

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:26 pm
by LordOfAles
Welcome to Age Of Strategy! :lol:

But srsly maybe we should remove cats and trebs from wagons and give them 2 speed, but thats a whole different topic, and make horse units unable to enter wagons to prevent "surprise m***********" combo

So i pretty much agree with you, i dont, however, think others do, as this would mean they will lose their most used strategies

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:50 pm
by DoomCarrot
Actually, I sort of take back what I said. But not entirely. What I said is far too often true in large games (40x40+ maps in my experience), but in smaller maps I admit I have rarely seen much spamming of any type.

However, on large maps, spamming of any type can be a problem lol. I suppose that is why we now have pop limits though, which probably would be a remedy, I just have yet to play a large map on a small pop limit.

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:04 pm
by godOfKings
Okay but in that case I read in another thread about the idea of packing sieges to give them 4 speed kind of like the way rangers transform, if that idea is implemented and sieges (except rams and cannons) are banned from wagons I wouldn't mind if mounts are also banned. The game would probably be more slow paced as there would be less chance for surprise attack but at least other infrantry- wagon combo might find itself in the list of conventional strategies

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:24 am
by MikeyHud
Cavalry units AREN'T made to be transported via wagon.
Their long range is made so they can charge the enemy's front line, and they already have bonuses against everything EXCEPT buildings and pikemen.
While I do see the use of putting cavalry in the wagons, the wagons themselves were made for transporting your army towards the front line, to reinforce your position against the enemy, not to throw more mounted units at it. If you manage to get a team of workers going, you can produce wagons nearly every turn, which would allow you to keep up with the 2 turn spawning times of the basic infantry units.

Without me being here for a long time to explain why its more reasonable for the wagons to be used for INFANTRY, i'm gonna sum it up with a sentence.

Mounted units are very big, imagine putting 3 of them in a wagon made for only three people.

Also,
godOfKings wrote:Okay but in that case I read in another thread about the idea of packing sieges to give them 4 speed kind of like the way rangers transform, if that idea is implemented and sieges (except rams and cannons) are banned from wagons
This. It's very similar to the mounted unit wagon combo, except that instead of just making quick work of infantry, it demolishes structures as well.
Personally, I use the war machine wagon combo, and it's really OP in my opinion.

I think both mounted units, and war machines be banned from, or at least be limited in wagons. (1 war machine/1 mounted unit)

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:05 am
by LordOfAles
They HAVE bonus against pikemen and halberdiers

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:17 am
by godOfKings
Mikeyhud U didn't have to make such a long post just to repeat wat I said and I didn't quite understand wat lordofales meant who have bonus against pikeman?

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:38 pm
by LordOfAles
Knights

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:12 am
by MikeyHud
LordOfAles wrote:They HAVE bonus against pikemen and halberdiers
The bonuses against pikemen and halberds do exist, but would you really want to have a knight attack their main counter?
Even with the bonus against both of them, after running a quick test, only heavy knights are able to 1 shot pikemen. That doesn't include halberdiers. And even then, regular knights survive a counter attack with only 1 hp (12 against pikeman), while heavy knights survive a halberdier counter attack with only 8 hp.

godOfKings wrote:Mikeyhud U didn't have to make such a long post just to repeat wat I said and I didn't quite understand wat lordofales meant who have bonus against pikeman?
I was agreeing with you by saying that war machines shouldn't be allowed in wagons... Or at least agreeing with the idea you had. Also, Ales is talking about the mounted unit's bonus damage against infantry, which pikemen and halberdiers are. Also long posts because i'm trying to make more than one point.

To sum it up, nerf mounted units in wagons, and nerf war machines in wagons. Their main counter, spear units, are going to be the only infantry anyone even bothers to produce if mounted-wagons aren't nerfed.

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:40 am
by MightyGuy
when I played age of strategy just before, I saw that the elephant and elephant archer could enter the inside of the siege tower. I think that's wrong, one type of cavalry unit should not be able to enter a movable unit garrison.

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:41 pm
by godOfKings
Actually no one has any bonus against pikemen its just that they r weak that they die easily

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:46 pm
by Puss_in_Boots
Technically their weaknesses are archers, but if you have them in towers or seige walls, you have send other units in to snuff it out.

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:03 am
by godOfKings
If mounts r banned from wagons, how about we also ban elephants, and give them three speed instead? I think there is already a topic about it and I support it

Re: Knights in wagons

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:18 pm
by Enemy of LordOfAles
Hi im new user this is my first post. Knights in wagons is not wise idea :lol: