New Parameters: Mana/MP.

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DoomsdayDragonfire
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New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:43 pm

So, i was thinking on how to separate spell and skill for once while providing a more imersive and not complicated gameplay for everyone and ofc naturally balancing some stuff. And the answer is quite simple... To add new magic parameters to the game! (Mana, Magic points, MP... All the same :lol: ) So...

- All units receive current/total mana value and recover rate.
- All spells provide a required mana cost.


While the turn cooldown refers to the channeling time for a skill/spell be performed or released, now magic units requires a specific amount of "MP" to release spells, with this we could create and have benefits of:

- Many new and advanced spells without suffer from spam abuse or giant cooldowns as spells would drain considerable amount of mana from the unit already. (Scalable spells - low fire, med fire, big fire based on mana cost)

- Many new spell disabling effects that can work without cutting movements or actions from the unit by affecting new parameters and cathegories.

- Many new effect possibilities as attack, transfer and drain the mana from a unit. (Eg - Magic shield spell, magic counter, magic reflection...)

- Mana penalty effects. Eg: If an unit has not enough mana, it could not release magic spells (obvious), but also not receive/maintain benefits of a friendly positive magic auras or effects as regenerating heals over time (But that would not apply to negative effects hehehe).

- Many new magic units and spell based conditions and effects for triggers on map editor for campaigns. (As add a curse that drains all energy from the units if stealing a jewel)

While the skills would work as same as you don't need magic power, but just know the "how to do/use" in order to perform it.

So all natural hability skills (As a heavy slash, a tail attack, a precise arrow shoot, drinking a potion or putting poison on weapons...) would not require mana in order to be used.

This will naturally boost and balance magic units, while adding a very familiar RPG characteristic to AOF.

Factions can be finally and trully be not based only on brute strenght (as orcs or scalefolks), or technology (as humans and dwarves), or tecnique/dexterity (as elves), but also on their magic power aswell (as guess who? :lol: )

Well i just talked about how it could work and some possibilities with very few examples... But what you guys think about? Did this gave you new ideas? Any questions? You know what to do! :lol:
Last edited by DoomsdayDragonfire on Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:06 pm

What for now i like is simlicity of magic in aof. That it only has 3 parameters: spell range (+ power range of spell or aoe for some spells), spell type + spell resist (those 2 are working as 1 parameter for me) and spell cooldown. And i don't like idea of adding another 3 parameters: mana cost, mana regen, mana pool.

For example magic in Warcraft 3 has all 6 mentioned parameters and that makes some battles really frustrating because you must rely on spells a bit too much for strategy game. It becomes less strategy and more rpg which i don't want to see in aof.
Also this way aof will loose its uniqueness in casting because for now it is i think only fantasy strategy game without those overused mana things.

Also undeads must not rely solely onto magic because enemies have magic immune units (i think all races must have units with high or even 100% spell resist for now) and instead they also must rely on increasing their numbers drasically and on non-magic debuffing (on-hit, auras, some abilities like poison breath).

As for elves they are not even now relying onto magic. Nor they should rely onto it. Their main powers are 1. Tech variability (and me and alex discussed expansion of techs for elves... they will become even more nightmare opponents than they are now.) 2. Range (not only archers, but range in general). 3. Dodges. 4. Speed. 5. Walking towers (Ents).
Magic must not be their strongest point. Nor they should be most powerful casters.

We didn't even begin implementing previous game changing mechanic - Elemental damages and elemental resistances (as well as more resistances in general).


Also personally i want to see "silence" ability that will forcibly set cooldown on all abilities target caster has to 3-6 turns.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:08 am

Good points. As everything, this isn't to be implemented b4 a long discussion. And i know isn't a thing to be added tomorrow.

The first thing is that skills and spells would work better if they where separated. While skills will be not affected by spell resist (it does not make sense they be atm, they are not magic!), spells would keep being affected... And by adding these new parameters, even more things could be made.

Well having 3 magic parameters kinda limit of what spells we can make and have atm, adding extra parameters would enable us to work with a wider array of new possibilities.

Elemental damage/resistance is a RPG factor itself and nobody had seen problems with that... In fact the game is a strategy game with many RPG factors (As you can see and make whole RPG Campaigns already).

MP is almost a core parameter for any game with magic so it is very common (and handly) to see that around.

For Warcraft3, it is a real time stategy game, so there are more factors than actually the 6 parameter for that, but one major thing that you are fadded to rely is on "active time" that is real time on/of the game... That is affected by many external sources as device performance, connection (if online)... Those things doesn't exist and don't apply on AOF as turn strategy game as everyone, no matter how good or bad is their device and connection, have his turn ensured... And i don't think that adding MP would ever take out the unique concept of AOF, actually the very oposite, as a strategy game, would increase the strategy factor (as you must think when, where and how to use spells and skills of your units) and on same time add a well know concept of very easy "user adaptability" to our gameplay.

Elves actually rely on more technique than magic, i should had not excuded them and added them as 4th factor when mentioning the factions (as the game had 4 original factions with each a particular style, i guessed that where evident tho... So i had deleted them when making the post...) my bad. :? :lol:

The original idea of undeads where in fact to have these stronger evil casters, but as time passed, things were changing and we had to adapt undead to what we had... The black magic where converted to a more support "The assault in numbers"... That is a thing that worked and still work, but the the title of most underpowered never had been out of them... And since thats is my favorite faction alongside humans, thats quite sad...

Mana/MP/chi/ki/mantra/spiritual power or whatever other names exist (you can also suggest other names for a more AOF atmosphere)... Is a good old recipe, so isn't hard to understand how it works and i know it will add much more immersion to our magical units. And on same time, will be very easy to all players (from novice to veterans) to adapt to this mechanic.
Also personally i want to see "silence" ability that will forcibly set cooldown on all abilities target caster has to 3-6 turns.
I must say that looks more to "slowing/delay" like spell but for cooldowns... That's in fact interesting, but as i said and will refresh, separate the skills and spells would be better, while to spells you can have this "silence" to prevent the target from casting spells, you can have a "imobilize" to prevent the targed from using his skills. While "disable" would disable the use of both kind of habilities on the same time. None of these 3 would affect the unit action parameter, just hability ones... So the unit could still move and deliver his basic attack.
(Note those 3 spells are just names to give you the basic idea of the "new spell disabling effects that can work without cutting movements or actions from the unit..." i'm sure you can figure out other names for these effects).
Breaking the barrier of "work for the job" to "put the job to work for you" is a thing that i want to reach someday aswell... Probably i should make some notes about it...
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by Midonik » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:38 am

Not magic skills can and I think are not effected by the spell resistance, and they can even be reduced by armor. Heck, all damaging (magic arrow, area effects, hell of pain by sacrafience) stuff is not effected by spell resistance as far as I know.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:46 pm

Good thing you touched that... This will allow me to explain how habilities currently work! :lol: (imo)

Those are offensive habilities, they own a set amount of damage and sometimes a secondary effect, the damage ignores the spell resist and goes to health that can be defended by armors... But the secondary effect gets blocked if the unit has imunity to it.

On all versions of game you can see (or at least i noticed) 3 head categories of habilities (that right now, apply to all habilities)... None of them is tagged as magic, skill or so by the game logic, just the player base do... They all are tagged on a single category as habilities. So i will put here to be easier to understand anyway. For all version, Habilities exist in these 3 ways: (note that none is tagged as so aswell)

- Ofensive habilities. - instant brute dmg. Having or not one or more extra/side effects.

- Boosting/halving habilities. - no instant dmg, but provide harmful or beneficial stat to the unit. Including Auras and parameter changing effects.

- Support habilities. - magically or not, heal/mend, deploy, spawn or transform someone/something in the field.

With they all being able to work on area or on a single tile... And also able to ignore or not the armors, dodges and spell resists...
(I'm sure Daniel can make a post with all details and stuff about how they work in fact, this was my summarized example based on gameplay experience and research)

But on AOF, you got working not only skills but also magics.
So there, inside those 3 head categories, you have magic spells and you have also the unit skills working as one, thing that should not be happening as their characteristics are different from each other. So they must be separated into 3 cathegories for each... As 3 will work with spells and 3 will work with skills:

- Offensive skills.
- Boosting skills.
- Support skills.

- Offensive spells/magics.
- Boosting spells/magics.
- Support spells/magics.

Organize what habilities we have now is just the first step on this, later comes the MP stuff to expand what we can do about magical units. Bcz unlike the units that have dozens of categories, habilities don't have that proper separation... And with that, including new parameters for habilities as MP and newer sources of dmg/resistance would be really easy to understand, implement and adjust. As it would have now, a clear definition of what they are and where they belong for the game logic. With MP parameters making a definitive separation between them.

So to sumarize.
- Instead of one category for all habilities, lets organize it breaking it in six, 3 for skills, 3 for spells.
- Then add new parameters that will at same time, boost, fix and provide the many benefits i listed already.

Was this clear right?
Breaking the barrier of "work for the job" to "put the job to work for you" is a thing that i want to reach someday aswell... Probably i should make some notes about it...
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:39 pm

No i don't like this idea still.

I don't want to see aof as turn-based warcraft 2.
What next you will suggest? Money, wood and other resources?

Please no.

Not only offensive abilities can ignore magic immunity. On hit effects also can ignore it (curse weapon, fear weapon).
Also some offensive abilities are affected by armor (cannonball of ghost vessel) while other are not (fireball, magic missle).

And as i see we currently have next ability types:
Buffing - those will always affect their possible targets;
Debuffing - those are only type of abilities which are affected by spell resist (apart from hell of pain by sacrifice in which sr of sacrifice is counted as well (is unit immune to spells or not — that is how it is counted) and because it will miss if to sacrifice spell immune unit);
Healing - any sort of;
Damaging - any sort of damaging abilities;
Enchanting - those will provide on-hit effects and on-hit effect are here as well;
Disenchanting - special ability type;
Summon - any sort of summoning abilities;
And also last categore that i want to add
Exorcism - affects all summonable units, not just ubdeads, deals shitton of damage to them.

Also abilities can be divided into next types as well:
Single target or Area of Effect;
(If single target) Castable (or affects) on others or on self;
Passive or Active.
For example Active Area of Effect ability is poison breath and Passive Area of Effect ability is any aura.


@DoomsdayDragonfire no need for mana in aof. It will omly break the balance into oblivion. Also there are lots of other variants for abilities in those categories i mentioned. Just use your imagine.
Last edited by makazuwr32 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by Tankhead » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:56 pm

Unfortunately doom Alex and Dev prefer less complex gameplay even if Ideal to other games.
Tis the reason why I think magic armor not in
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:02 pm

Tankhead wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:56 pm
Unfortunately doom Alex and Dev prefer less complex gameplay even if Ideal to other games.
Tis the reason why I think magic armor not in
And i also prefer less complex gameplay as well.

I am not mentioning that this will require complete full revamp of core engine of the game. It is easier i think at this point IF you want mana so god damn much to make new game (AoR) from scrap rather than to change AoF.
Alas i would like to see elemental types.

If you want mp and recources play into warcraft/heroes of might and magic/any rpg.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by General Brave » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:46 am

It might work, but might be late for that and seems people prefer simpler. Perhaps for a different project.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:55 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:39 pm
No i don't like this idea still.

I don't want to see aof as turn-based warcraft 2.
What next you will suggest? Money, wood and other resources?

Please no.

Not only offensive abilities can ignore magic immunity. On hit effects also can ignore it (curse weapon, fear weapon).
Also some offensive abilities are affected by armor (cannonball of ghost vessel) while other are not (fireball, magic missle).

And as i see we currently have next ability types:
Buffing - those will always affect their possible targets;
Debuffing - those are only type of abilities which are affected by spell resist (apart from hell of pain by sacrifice in which sr of sacrifice is counted as well (is unit immune to spells or not — that is how it is counted) and because it will miss if to sacrifice spell immune unit);
Healing - any sort of;
Damaging - any sort of damaging abilities;
Enchanting - those will provide on-hit effects and on-hit effect are here as well;
Disenchanting - special ability type;
Summon - any sort of summoning abilities;
And also last categore that i want to add
Exorcism - affects all summonable units, not just ubdeads, deals shitton of damage to them.

Also abilities can be divided into next types as well:
Single target or Area of Effect;
(If single target) Castable (or affects) on others or on self;
Passive or Active.
For example Active Area of Effect ability is poison breath and Passive Area of Effect ability is any aura.


@DoomsdayDragonfire no need for mana in aof. It will omly break the balance into oblivion. Also there are lots of other variants for abilities in those categories i mentioned. Just use your imagine.
You just broke the 3 headers into 8 subheaders. The first thing was to break these 8 into 16 subheader cathegories... As skills and magics would be divided in their own sections... But now, you can forget that.

Resources? You still are thinking on RTS?
What's the point on suggesting something to improve AOF if you say Go play "x" or "y" game instead?... I'm not looking for a new game, I'm here for AGE OF FANTASY... But, perhaps you are right to suggest me to take this to a newer project.
General Brave wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:46 am
It might work, but might be late for that and seems people prefer simpler. Perhaps for a different project.
Yep, i noticed... Thats probably the best option... But doubt that @Stratego (dev) would allow me to make structural modifications given the little time he was...
Breaking the barrier of "work for the job" to "put the job to work for you" is a thing that i want to reach someday aswell... Probably i should make some notes about it...
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:12 pm

Unique feature of aos and aof as for me is their simplicity in terms of resources. It has only 3 resources: time (turns, most precious resource), town centers and workers. And you don't need to wait for collecting more resources from woods/stone mines/gold mines or to replenish mana.

And this allows you to concentrate on war itself. On strategy. That is what makes these 2 games for me most intresting.

About abilities as i said already: only debuffing spells are affected by spell resist and there are lots of way to ignore it via abilities (on-hit effect passive or activable, aoe spell (these for now ignore spell resist and only count immunity to that or other effect) and auras).


Also those monster skeletons + empowered necromancy tech will greatly improve undeads.
Alex also wants to add trainable variants of both current golems without vanishing.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by Midonik » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:15 pm

I'm not sure if it reached everyone - every effect can be set in JSON to ignore spell resistance, as well as to be effected by armor (well the last one naturaly for the damaging spells). At least in AoWw/AoG but I'm pretty sure it's same for AoF. If you want to get an idea what can be done and what can't without Stratego's work you can check in modders lounge.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:55 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:12 pm
Unique feature of aos and aof as for me is their simplicity in terms of resources. It has only 3 resources: time (turns, most precious resource), town centers and workers. And you don't need to wait for collecting more resources from woods/stone mines/gold mines or to replenish mana.

And this allows you to concentrate on war itself. On strategy. That is what makes these 2 games for me most intresting.

About abilities as i said already: only debuffing spells are affected by spell resist and there are lots of way to ignore it via abilities (on-hit effect passive or activable, aoe spell (these for now ignore spell resist and only count immunity to that or other effect) and auras).


Also those monster skeletons + empowered necromancy tech will greatly improve undeads.
Alex also wants to add trainable variants of both current golems without vanishing.
MP would only be considered as resource if you consider health points from every unit as resources aswell... So unless you do, it doesn't make sense for me since both are sides of the same coin... And if don't, it would just improve exactly the strategy aspect you are complaining about... I get that you want simple things but that's contradictory as you also wait for complex elemental dmg mechanics...

Nope, such cathegorization doesn't exist on game logic, as i said only player base do such things... With any hability, you can set them in Jsons if they bypass or not spell resist or armor, have dmg or not... Have aoe or not... Be on hit or not... Stackable or not... You can pretty much create an effect that owns 9999999 dmg and almost all (not conflicting) effects together... So from the very beginning, what i'm saying is simple, to organize that.............. And to make that, new cathegories must have been made to distribute these existing parameters... Including these so called buffing/debuffing and others... And inside those, separate spells from skills... So not only few players, but the game itself owns very clear definitions about what is what... Can't be more simple than that as it won't let margin for misinterpretation...

MP isn't about undeads, it is about all magical units in game, but since undeads have a big spellcaster's base, they would be the most benefited faction, that doesn't mean all other races would not receive attention, in fact just oposite...
Midonik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:15 pm
I'm not sure if it reached everyone - every effect can be set in JSON to ignore spell resistance, as well as to be effected by armor (well the last one naturaly for the damaging spells). At least in AoWw/AoG but I'm pretty sure it's same for AoF. If you want to get an idea what can be done and what can't without Stratego's work you can check in modders lounge.
Yeah i know, that's why i'm suggesting this... This is pretty much a thing that only Daniel can do... Unless he allows me to start doing that by myself. But right now, even if he allow it, for some reason cof cof (DMC5) cof, this will chill in the freezer for a long time untill i get mood for it again.
Breaking the barrier of "work for the job" to "put the job to work for you" is a thing that i want to reach someday aswell... Probably i should make some notes about it...
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:04 pm

can someone summarize it for me in a few points?

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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by Tankhead » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:13 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:04 pm
can someone summarize it for me in a few points?
The most im getting out of this is "can their be a mana point game mechanic?"

The other stuff in a summary "can this game be a little more complex"?
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:44 pm

mana point: how would that work?
complex: we need to avoid bringing in more complexity - but if something found essential we can do it.

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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by Tankhead » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:29 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:44 pm
mana point: how would that work?
complex: we need to avoid bringing in more complexity - but if something found essential we can do it.
Mana points seem easy enough
Give all units certain amount of mana points.
In my opinion all the same amount like 50.
It'll be a blue bar shown under the health bar in game.
Skills and magic spells use certain amount of mana points.
Every turn you regain mana if any depleted or remove regain factor depending on ppl

This pretty much makes you be smart on when to use spells and skills and at the right time.

This seems like a cool and good factor fitting this game cause its more strategy mangled in there and in my opinion doesn't seem too complex at all.

Certain things to think about before even thinking about this

1) How much will each skill and spell consume points

2) Alex acceptance because he is design leader that make big choices like this

3) Dev ( your acceptance ) cause it'll be you to make it possible in json

4) the amount of time and work it'll take to get in and when to start this project if accepted
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by General Brave » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:07 am

Sounds a bit more likeable.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:43 am

@Alexander82 can you answer onto this topic? Your own vision on this?

And no i didn't discuss with him yet mana and such things.
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:25 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:44 pm
mana point: how would that work?
complex: we need to avoid bringing in more complexity - but if something found essential we can do it.
Tankhead had made a very good explanation. Basically:
-All units will have a certain amount of mana.
-All spells would consume mana from units.
-Every turn, the units would recover a certain amount of mana if not fullfiled.

How much each unit will have or blue bar under the health one on unit as indicator for it are details for later discussion, but about MP, that's all the mechanic.

As everything that is new, always add some complexity, but in this case, it doesn't seen complex as everyone seens to understand what is been proposed and are even familiar with it already. :lol:
Tankhead wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:29 pm

Mana points seem easy enough
Give all units certain amount of mana points.
In my opinion all the same amount like 50.
It'll be a blue bar shown under the health bar in game.
Skills and magic spells use certain amount of mana points.
Every turn you regain mana if any depleted or remove regain factor depending on ppl

This pretty much makes you be smart on when to use spells and skills and at the right time.

This seems like a cool and good factor fitting this game cause its more strategy mangled in there and in my opinion doesn't seem too complex at all.

Certain things to think about before even thinking about this

1) How much will each skill and spell consume points

2) Alex acceptance because he is design leader that make big choices like this

3) Dev ( your acceptance ) cause it'll be you to make it possible in json

4) the amount of time and work it'll take to get in and when to start this project if accepted
I can't answer 2 and 3 for them, but 1 and 4 would happen after and if this is accepted...

The first enter on adjust/balance aspect, so will affect directly the 4th. While the 4th would be made almost totally made by the users, so all what Daniel would need to do would be add the new parameters to the statsheet so we can add and change the values by ourself, while him and Alex overlook and fix our mistakes if there's any.

The first (discuss how much mana each unit will have and how much mana each spell will consume) will be the longest part imo. Bcz implementation is easy if you have all values that is needed for it defined and ready. But since we haven't even started, that will take some time.

And since Maka have some reluctance to it, i think add this as new game mode that will not substitute the current mode might make him more open to this. It will be sure that would require extra work, but at least would make everyone happy.
Breaking the barrier of "work for the job" to "put the job to work for you" is a thing that i want to reach someday aswell... Probably i should make some notes about it...
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makazuwr32
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Re: New Parameters: Mana/MP.

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:17 pm

If alex will accept this then fine.
Specifically for not so genious persons
makazuwr32 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:24 am
IT IS ALWAYS EASIER TO CORRECT EXISTING THINGS THAN TO MAKE SOMETHING NEW FROM SCRAP. © by Makazuwr32™.

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