Re: Poleaxeman

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StormSaint373
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by StormSaint373 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:36 pm

: An infatry unit that is adept at dealing with cavalry and holding off infantry, for a higher cost of course...

Cost: 3
Hp: 16/19/22
Attack: 8/11/14
Armor: 0/0,1/1,2/2
Speed: 3
Vision: 4
SR: 0
Action/Turn: 1

Bonus: 200% vs cavalry, 50% vs infantry, 400 vs elephants

Working on imgs
Last edited by StormSaint373 on Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Halberdier

Post by StormSaint373 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:41 pm

@Endru1241 , @Stratego (dev) , this infantry unit shou be able to counteract the cavalry discussions...

As tested in AoF, they are more costly, but have enough dmg to take down a horseman of the same tier even after taking a hit...

The Halberdier will be affected by ALL the normal smithing techs... +Reach.

They are still vulnerable to archers, but can take almost as much dmg as a swordsman.

I believe it would be an excellent addition to AoS.
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Re: Halberdier

Post by StormSaint373 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:43 pm

Would someone please post an img, so I may make tiers?

(Halberdier)

Kinda like that img too much.
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Endru1241
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Re: Halberdier

Post by Endru1241 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:29 pm

Right now we are working on current halbeldier revision, so this name is kinda out.
There will be: spearman->gisarmeman->halbeldier

It's actually pretty accurate historically - all three of these weapons were used mostly by peasants/poor people. Spear - one of oldest weapons, was prominent in ancient times and first half of middle ages. Gisarme was mostly used around years 1000-1400. Halberd became popular in XIX-XV century.

I also plan to add 3turn unit with very long pole - pikeman - he would have 2 range and be better pure anti-cavalry foot unit.

Reach is getting change from +2power to first strike ability ( attacks first on counterattack).

About Your unit idea - it's fine, but renaming is needed.

Which halbeldier image o You want - AoS one?

Edit: I'm again wondering about vs infantry bonus. In larger scale in fact. Infantry has too many counters (mostly by other infantry) and they become more and more useless. I'm not gonna go in detail here, but this one bonus would get nerfed or removed then.

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Re: Halberdier

Post by StormSaint373 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:45 pm

Understandable. . .

I was thinking a pole axe, spear on top, axe one one side and a hammer on the other, (most versatile pole arm used)

However, it had been noted that there was a discussion that it would be too similar to the halberd.

So, Poleaxeman? Will work, unless there is something better.

As for img, yes, I'd like Halberdier from AoS.

Wait, the Bardiche comes to mind, whilst still useful as both an anti infantry and anti cavalry... It is less controversial when discussed...

But how would that be named?
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Re: Halberdier

Post by StormSaint373 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:03 pm

The broad-headed axe] was succeeded by the berdiche, a pole-axe, longer in shaft and having the narrow lower end of tall blade rounded inward and braced against the shaft. At first this lower end of the blade merely touched the wooden shaft; it then became fastened to it; next it embraced the shaft, developing for this purpose an encircling loop, like the main ring which forms the socket of the axe-head. This “generalized” type of pole-axe was common to all countries of Europe before the year 1400. It was essentially the butcher's heavy weapon with which he clave the head of an ox. It was this primitive halberd which the Swiss mountaineers used in their early struggle with Austria, and at Sempach and Mortgarten it destroyed much splendid armor. But in battle it was found useful not only for chopping but for thrusting, hence the narrowing of the front end of its plate.

-- from Wikipedia.

Thus this weapon was a Russian, Polish, Irish, Scottish, and Nordic Weapon.

As it was descended from the sparth axe as well.
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Re: Halberdier

Post by Endru1241 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:20 pm

Nah. It was just an axe.

What You are looking for is Pollaxe.

Image

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Re: Halberdier

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:55 pm

Are you guys interested in historcial design?
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by StormSaint373 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:37 pm

Alright, I'll go for poleaxe.

Got any idea as to what to call it besides Poleaxeman?

So, I can change topic name to an appropriate one?
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:56 pm

pole axe soldier, knight with poleaxe?

also poleaxes were anti armor weapons in the 1st place not anti cavalry
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:01 am

Not quite - typical anti-armor weapon of late medieval was either blunt or piercing. Like horsman pick combining both, maces, flails.
Typical anti-infantry was still slashing - sabers, axes.

Typical anti-cavalry was guisarme (succedded by halberd). Warhammers were also used on strongly armored ones (mostly using pointy end), lighter armor could also be cleaved through by axes, berdiches. The point is - it had to have longer reach.

Poll-axe or Hammer-Axe was knight favourite as it was known for being most universal - it's a weapon combining all three types of attacks and with quite a reach. It was also probably just popular among known weaponsmiths.

It wasn't used by many infantry, as it was pricier and heavier than others. And above all jack of all trades, master of none.
The best anti-charge - pike.
The best universal anti-cavalry - lighter and cheaper halberd (with hook).
Etc.
But poll-axe was still quite effective vs mounted units

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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:01 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:01 am
Not quite - typical anti-armor weapon of late medieval was either blunt or piercing. Like horsman pick combining both, maces, flails.
Typical anti-infantry was still slashing - sabers, axes.

Typical anti-cavalry was guisarme (succedded by halberd). Warhammers were also used on strongly armored ones (mostly using pointy end), lighter armor could also be cleaved through by axes, berdiches. The point is - it had to have longer reach.

Poll-axe or Hammer-Axe was knight favourite as it was known for being most universal - it's a weapon combining all three types of attacks and with quite a reach. It was also probably just popular among known weaponsmiths.

It wasn't used by many infantry, as it was pricier and heavier than others. And above all jack of all trades, master of none.
The best anti-charge - pike.
The best universal anti-cavalry - lighter and cheaper halberd (with hook).
Etc.
But poll-axe was still quite effective vs mounted units
Its a 2 handed anti armor weapon, theres tons of manuals showing it used against armored opponents, also not all anti armor weapons had to be blunt or one handed, i mean polehammers are also a thing, halberds are also considered anti armor beacuse of the hook
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:02 pm

Amd yes you are correct, it was almost a knight exclusive weapon
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Endru1241 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:57 pm

Well, it's true not all anti-armor weapons were one-handed. But regular footman was better with shield (he didn't have expensive full-plate armor from good steel). More spread use of two-handed weapons for normal infantry came with spreading of firearms (shields were not very effective against musket), but that's early modern era already.

Hook was mainly used to bring rider down from a horse. Or disarm weapon or shield from enemy (sometimes along with arm, literally). Good knight armor was too hard to bring apart.

I'm pretty sure, that what You mean by polehammer is actually battlehammer.

About images appearance. That's right. What's more - there is almost no poll-axes shown on various battlefield paintings at all. Even if in the text of a chronicle there was this weapon mentioned, on pictures were only halberds or pole weapons being combined axe, spear and pick (some dubbed this poll-axe as well). That goes with the question - how often were they used in real battlefields anyway? All these text and pictures from masters manuals don't really help, as they were mainly teaching duelling techniques. One on one is not really common battlefield situation.

But no matter what - this weapon was more effective vs mounted than, let's say regular swordsmen.

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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:39 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:57 pm
Well, it's true not all anti-armor weapons were one-handed. But regular footman was better with shield (he didn't have expensive full-plate armor from good steel). More spread use of two-handed weapons for normal infantry came with spreading of firearms (shields were not very effective against musket), but that's early modern era already.

Hook was mainly used to bring rider down from a horse. Or disarm weapon or shield from enemy (sometimes along with arm, literally). Good knight armor was too hard to bring apart.

I'm pretty sure, that what You mean by polehammer is actually battlehammer.

About images appearance. That's right. What's more - there is almost no poll-axes shown on various battlefield paintings at all. Even if in the text of a chronicle there was this weapon mentioned, on pictures were only halberds or pole weapons being combined axe, spear and pick (some dubbed this poll-axe as well). That goes with the question - how often were they used in real battlefields anyway? All these text and pictures from masters manuals don't really help, as they were mainly teaching duelling techniques. One on one is not really common battlefield situation.

But no matter what - this weapon was more effective vs mounted than, let's say regular swordsmen.
poleaxes dont have the length to be effective polearms against horsemen, they just dont have the length, but the user could give it a try nonetheless

the hook of a halberd was also used in a donward strike to hit the shoulders of armored soldiers or to reach the back of the knee, were there was usually only mail (on full plate) but yes it was also used to de-horse cavalrymen.

poleaxes were expensive, you said it, their use was restricted by the price, so only wealthy soldiers a.k.a knights would use them.

google polehammers and you see what im talking about

yup, you are correct, theres not a lot of depictions of poleaxes in medieval imagery, they are often seen on a dueling context (knights preferred to fight each other in full plate and a polearm ususally a poleaxe or a polehammer) so you can say that their battlefield usage was limited, but that doesnt mean it was used any differently.

the weapon of the opponent has no effect when it comes to what armor hes using so the fact the hes using only a sword doesnt mean the poleaxe is any less useful, in fact a swordman is in a reach disadvantage.

in conclussion it was a expensive, limited, used prominently in duels, and it was designed to defeat armor
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:54 am

So it should be poleaxe knight - 5 + turns unit with fair armor and bonus against all armored (heavy infantries, heavy cavalry) or ignore armor ability with no bonuses.

I this case - any idea what weapon could be used for basic 2-3 turn unit effective vs cavalry, that is not used already or some known anti-cavalry units in history name?

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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:55 am

Bills, guisarmes, voulges, fauchards, partizan spears, a ranseurs, bardiches.
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:25 am

I forgot about bill.
Billman would fit nicely as halberd alternative name.
It practically had the same use and both were generally cheap weapons often made from reshaping, sharpening other sides of farmer tools.

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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:51 pm

Heres an old sprite I made
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billman (1).png
billman (1).png (2.13 KiB) Viewed 40 times
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Re: Poleaxeman

Post by StormSaint373 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:33 pm

Design is nice, but it needs to become a bit more 3d.
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