Human navy

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Should humans have a lot of surface based fleet, or submarine based?

Surface based fleet
1
50%
Submarine based fleet
1
50%
 
Total votes: 2

Midonik
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Human navy

Post by Midonik » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:27 pm

So about human navy... What should be in:
Submarine - invisible, bonus mainly vs big ships, like the AoWw's one basically
Ballistic submarine - like submarine, but instead of torpedoes attack, range, bonuses (and I gave it bonuses against ships lately) and miss chance of ballistic missile launcher, higher cost
Destroyer - 4 cost, avarge hp and armor, as well as damage and range, high miss chance, good speed, lil bonus against ships (so it can hit them) and nice bonus against subs, should it be ability? How does the anit - sub warfare acctualy work?
Mine layer - like destroyer but instead of anit - sub bonus ability to lay sea mines
AA light crusier - just a bit costlier and slower than destryer, but better hp and armor, same range, bit higher attack, and ability - SAM missile
Light crusier - like previous but instead of SAM more attack and perhaps range
Ballistic crusier - stats of light crusier but range, bonuses and miss chance of ballistic missile launcher, higher cost
Heavy crusier - higher armor, hp, attack, perhaps range, cost, but lower speed than light crusier
Aircraft carrier - more or the less like AoWw one, high hp and armor and cost, low speed, can carry 3 high flying units and perhaps mend them a bit, some self defense with not too high range
The ships that aren't using the missiles uses the railguns (physical)

Why isn't there a battleships? Well they were rather useless during WW2 already, they are big and slow and thus easy target for anit ship planes that are main part of modern naval war. In these they they are already like dinosaurs. Big. Not present.

Samuelch made a suggestion to replace the carrier with mini carrier (less capacity - 1-2, less hp and armor, lower cost, higher speed) as it would also became obsoleted. What do you think?
Last edited by Midonik on Thu May 30, 2019 3:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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godOfKings
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Re: Human navy

Post by godOfKings » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:04 pm

Good, r ballistic submarines basically like nuclear submarines? (Carrying large war heads with huge pay loads, that r great anti-building, anti-large ships and vehicles, as well as anti-infantry - enough fire power to vaporise basic infantry)

Only ones surviving such huge damage r planes(get only 1 damage)
other submarines (impossible to fire vertically upwards moving missiles under water)
Small vehicles (they r difficult to directly get hit by relatively slow missiles, takes long time to fly upwards and fall from above)
As well as robots or infantry in robot suits (that r about same size as light tanks)

Even though realistically these missiles can b shot down in mid air, the huge explosion would still seriously damage all nearby SAMS and cannon turrets in the explosion area (mostly on top of the building that was targeted)
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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:12 pm

Yeah, nuclear. Should I call them that? I wasn't sure if it doesn't mean they can only carry nuclear weaponary, tho I think it refers to the nuclear engine that powers them right?
But aren't they inaccurate? Well the stats of ballistic missile launcher (15 damage, bonuses vs buildings and ships, 70% accuracy, 7 range, 2 power range) seemed good enough for me... Generally it would need 3 hits to bring down infantry, but power range is significant.
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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:14 pm

Unless we should make them summon a new unit - crusier missile - that would have vanishing, speed, and albitly to attack destroying themselves in procees working somewhat like that (there was proposal to add that to multirole plane).
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Re: Human navy

Post by godOfKings » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:26 pm

No, nuclear means it is capable of carrying nuclear war heads, also basic infantry should easily die in a huge area around the exploding missile, that is why it makes sense to actually use robots in the future over 'meat' soldiers, they really can't withstand high intensity heat of explosion, robot body parts can b made of heat withstanding materials with high tech cooling vents using compressed air etc. (Basically futuristic air conditioner :lol: )

May b u can make a mechanism where fast intercepter planes can shoot down missiles from the sky....

EDIT: I didn't read second reply b4 posting it but ya, a cruiser missile can work that can b shot down but still deals same damage in power range after being destroyed (1 to high flying planes)
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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:30 pm

Hmm...
Anyway, about shooting from missiles form the sky. If instead of shooting the missile it would be summoned as a unit it would be possible to shoot it from the sky. Should SAM or AAs be able to shoot it down too? Is multirole plane enough or should we make a special one?
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godOfKings
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Re: Human navy

Post by godOfKings » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:32 am

godOfKings wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:26 pm
EDIT: I didn't read second reply b4 posting it but ya, a cruiser missile can work that can b shot down but still deals same damage in power range after being destroyed (1 to high flying planes)
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Re: Human navy

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:02 pm

That's interesting, that missile style would improve many things and with some adaptation, you can create one "assassin unit" missile for this version of the game.

About navy, while i don't see much use for naval units on this version, i liked that, but i will suggest something different, thinking a bit more ahead...

I think on an alien invasion, the first naval things to be taken out would be large surface targets as aircraft carriers and battle-cruisers, while they are imponent and fear-inducting machines to humans in human politics and warfare nowdays, aliens with their spaceships, would identify them as so and eliminate them asap, so if not destroyed, almost all surface ships would be retired since they had became obsolete, but in order to keep marines sake, they would be adapted to operate "flying-to-space" or underwater. So, on the first moment, most of naval units would be submarines and small surface ships for humans.

-Mine layer.
-Light surface ship. (Maybe a light frigate or destroyer)
-Light submarine. (Standard submarine shooting torpedoes)
-Assault submarine. (Medium sized. Can spawn basic missiles (SAM and SSM) and shoot torpedoes)
-Ballistic submarine. (Very large. Can spawn basic missiles and ballistic missiles)
-Aircraft Carrier submarine. (Largest. Can spawn/jetison UAV's and hold aircrafts/vtols)

Then later, after "years" of research, humans can produce their battle-spaceships to react against alien spaceships on the same level... So i think you can add a upgrade on shipyard so it can produce these aerial versions of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, battleships and AC...
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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:49 pm

Wait. I think you are considering a bit diffrent story variant. We aren't doing a "alien invasion" like in Xcom or whatever like it was supposed to be at the beggining, cause we figured out that would place humans at disadvantegous position tech wise and limit number of races and einvorments whatever.
Instead we are going with a story where all of races are in the state of intrerstellar empires and fig... I mean interact with each other. That enables many races, similar tech levels, space battles, many diffrent planets and additional neutral creatures of many sorts. Fair, squere and verisle.
Anyone is allowed to make their own stories with any settings possible in their maps and campaings, but that's main lore.
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Re: Human navy

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:04 pm

As different variant... No, as i said, i don't see much future into naval warfare if we already own all those intergalatic stuff as spaceships, floating/levitating vehicles and other stuff. The invasion thing was just an example and also is the only thing i can visualize right now for future naval units... I can think on big city like floating fortresses, but not combat surface ships... Maybe few merchant ships... I know the idea is to have a balance in tech and all between the races, so no worries...

Also since you touched on xcom... Would not be nice to see a xenomorph race around aswell in the future? I confess that i would love it :lol:
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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:26 am

hmmmmmmmmmmmm
I'm not sure if we will have spaceships in the planetary warfare in game, unless we have those tiers but maybe. That would be hard to balance ina sensful way I think. They would end up as second, even stronger planes. Sounds terraffing. Seperation, to certaim degree, of space and planetary battles seems easier to balance and all. Anyway.
So a almost fully submarine wersion? What do they need torpedoes for? As far as I know using submarine's torpedoes against other subs is or was a pain, am I wrong or it could possibly change in future? If my resoning is correct then anti-sub destroyer... A AA one to cover them...
Anyway, I'm not sure how is the submarine carrier supposed to look and work?
Also, only balistic ones as summonable ones. Rest simply as attack. I don't think they could be shoot down mid air, unless I'm wrong?
What do others think about that?

You mean a creatures able to morph into other creatures to fool them into thinking they are same kind? The problems is how to represent that.
Morphing as a simple transforms into versions with other capabilties I can easily see for myconids. Rather huge monsters than infantry men... mashroom... myc... whatever.
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Re: Human navy

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:14 am

But be terrifying is the exactly the idea for them :lol: ...

Anyway. Not only tiers, also would be very nice if we had the floor thing aswell to allow more units per tile... That will make them work nice on planetary battles. So i think it would not be that hard to balance that after those 2 are implemented... Since for example, on a random planetary game, space stuff would be kinda of mid-endgame technology (if you start from zero)... Space stuff is made to overhealm all surface units and etc with a just few exceptions... Also in other hand, i think we can also make large and heavy "planetary defenses" that are used to pulverize asteroids to demolish spaceships too later on. Things can be really interesting, but we have to wait further the new mechanics to add such imersive battles.

Well, if you want naval surface units, go ahead, but as i said, i don't see much future on surface ships.

I don't remember about the use of effective cannons underwater, so torpedoes are the best option there, and you are half right, the first generations of the torpedoes were absolutelly primitive, guided by ropes, they where awful untill they managed to make them to work by theirselves, in those days, submarine battles were just stupid, nowdays, things are different, also you can see very interesting kinds of torpedoes, like the hipersonic torpedoes (that can reach speeds like +4x faster than the fastest torpedoes of nowdays) and the nuclear torpedoes (that carry nukes) operating around 1K meters depth while the normal operational depth of submarines is currently 300 meters... In future, you can expect many improvements there. So i don't see any problems about sub fleets...

Well there is many examples of AC submarines, on ww2, i even made a post on AOW of those japanese submarines some time ago, so isn't a new concept, but still, very ambitious projects indeed, but with nowdays tech, you could create a new engineering wonder like these Gerald Ford's Aircraft Carriers from USA, on very big submarine hulls (bigger than Russian Typhoons)...

Anyway, there is a fictional submarine class (that i personnally like a lot) called "hrinfaxi" from Ace Combat games (there is many crazy stuff there) with 2 models build, one called hrinfaxi to launch aircrafts (F35-c and b) from an internal catapult build on it's top with a not-so-small entrance (still hard to land, but not impossible). And Scinfaxi, a cheaper version made to jetison multiple UAV drones instead of planes (that could be encapsuled and shooted by the vertical tubes while submerged). Both can use an array of missiles including ballistic missiles.

Nowdays with the advancement of point defense systems, the % of missiles hitting is dropping very fast for the conventional missiles (excluding ICBM's and hipersonic missiles), Point defense on ships can catch in flight anti-ship cruise missiles sometimes, some as anti-tank missiles are already being intercepted in flight very effectivelly (Germans are making a point defense system to put on their leopard2 and other apv's, they already got some nice results on defense against AT missiles, also you know that point defense from Merkava tank of Israel (i don't remember the name...) since it had entered in combat, had been triggered +250 times to defend these tanks against AT missiles, and no tank were lost any of those times, a perfect record of 100% interception), while ICBM's, currently aren't interceptable, unless on early stage, after that, isn't any know tech developed in RL to intercept them on high orbit or on descend route... Ofc you can expect them to be catched in the future as laser and railgun tech improves...

So i think all missiles could have this feature. Would make sense as point defense systems would allow them to have a decent chance to shoot down the incoming threats.

The Xenomorph i mentioned are like those from Xcom or Alien series since we were talking about it... But "Xenomorph" itself is kinda vague word and can relate to any alien race, so isn't a morphing style aliens i mentioned... I'm thinking more on nanotech engineered bioforms (half alien, half machine), something like a cyborg race than a "space fungus".

But a "disguise" hability sounds really intersting.
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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Wed May 29, 2019 5:19 pm

@Shyrik3244 don't bother reading all the stuff here if you don't want, but whatever we decide, you can make an image for submarine and ballistic submarine.
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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Thu May 30, 2019 2:37 pm

I've made a poll, I would like whoever is concerned by this game to read what is written in this topic and decided what should human fleet be like.
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Re: Human navy

Post by Shyrik3244 » Thu May 30, 2019 3:16 pm

Some ships of people can be left, but they can only be used on planet Earth. And so, for a change, you can add other ships of the future.

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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Thu May 30, 2019 3:39 pm

I have no idea how do you imagine the first part and completely no idea what do you mean by the second, don't abuse translator with too ambitious stuff.
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Re: Human navy

Post by Midonik » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:49 pm

We should make decision here...
Anyway I will open the topic for basic submarines as they will be in I guess
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