Veteran Limit

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Tankhead
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Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:36 pm

The ability Veteran needs some form of limit.
This ability I see too many times suggested knowing who gets this gets infinite armor, hp or attack.
@Stratego (dev) any way to set a limit?
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:17 pm

sorry, what exactly veteran do?

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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:22 pm

i have found
EFFECT_VETERANING_POWER thagives these:
"hpMax":2,
"power":1,
"armorPierce":1,
"armorNormal":1,

and the trigger is : ON_KILL_ENEMY in EFFECT_ENCHANT_VETERANING_POWER effect.


what is the suggestion? should it be a one time effect only?

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makazuwr32
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:15 pm

Tank wants upper limit for bonuses which are gained from veteran effect.
Like for example max hp that can be gained — +50% to normal max hp; max armor that can be gained — +6/+6 and so on.
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:21 pm

ok, but we need a general thing here.
this is a general logic:
- on given event (now on kill)
- add given stat modifier json to unit - this could be any kind of stat not only armor and hp


but anyway - if enemy let a unit get buffed that much by sending his own units to die - istn it his fault? :)

should we simply reduce the bonus? eg. to only hp?

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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:03 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:21 pm
ok, but we need a general thing here.
this is a general logic:
- on given event (now on kill)
- add given stat modifier json to unit - this could be any kind of stat not only armor and hp


but anyway - if enemy let a unit get buffed that much by sending his own units to die - istn it his fault? :)

should we simply reduce the bonus? eg. to only hp?
Ig it is its own fault but Sometimes its not always that way....
And yes Hp only sounds great, as its not too big of a deal

I would be supportive of Atk also but it would need a limit of some sort

The gaining armor part I never understood
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Alexander82
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:09 pm

some bonus might just be fractions

e.g. 0.2 armor
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General Brave
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by General Brave » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:31 pm

I would say leave it at it is, I make new versions instead.
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:57 am

General Brave wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:31 pm
I would say leave it at it is, I make new versions instead.
Current one would still need a limit
Whole point of me making this topic is to either change, nerf or limit current veteran
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by StormSaint373 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:19 am

Currently, I don't like idea of nerfing veteran power.

It is underused as it is.

The only playable units that have it is zurgo, and monk

He only increases in...

Att:+1
Armor:+1/+1

That's it.

Doesn't even correlate with veteran description.

Not to mention, veteraning units start as much weaker than standards and aren't affected by racial upgrades.
To increase in power, one has to micromanage a veteran unit.

If a limit is put on it, the concept of making a unit that gets stronger when it fights is void.
You'd be better off making standard units at this point.

The only way I'd see it be amiable is to make progression slower. But, an upper limit ruins the point of it.
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Tankhead
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:46 pm

Logically makes no sense why a unit gets infinite Increase in a stat like that and even more so in armor

Also the very reason its underused is simply cause its broken
The attack is ok kinda
But adding armor +1/+1 a very powerful ability without a limit
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Alexander82
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:46 pm

That's why I'd go for fractions

So you have actusl extra armor ony once in a few levels
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by StormSaint373 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:56 pm

Tankhead wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:46 pm
Logically makes no sense why a unit gets infinite Increase in a stat like that and even more so in armor

Also the very reason its underused is simply cause its broken
The attack is ok kinda
But adding armor +1/+1 a very powerful ability without a limit
• a permanent increase in stats, signifies the overall skill of the individual unit. (Like how one lvls up in an RPG)

. . . And RPGs are a big part of fantasy game.

No matter how high an armor is, it can be bypassed.

Minimal dmg for archers for elves, disarmor spell, fear spell, poison/burning effects, etc
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:59 pm

None of those matter besides bypassing attacks
Which more likely veteran units bound to be supported by supporter units.
And this Really isn't A Rpg.
Again I mentioned this cause im seeing too many units suggested with veteran knowing its too powerful.
Alexander82 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:46 pm
That's why I'd go for fractions

So you have actusl extra armor ony once in a few levels
A slower rate would actually Help this problem alot.
Can we go for this?
If this isn't Hardcoded in ( idk if it is ) I can do this myself
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by StormSaint373 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:41 pm

Also, veteran units forgo all other racial abilities for their one power.

Meaning, they will not be affected by blacksmith upgrades, Dodges, etc.
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Tankhead
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:27 am

Of course
That's the cost for unlimited buffing
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by StormSaint373 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:00 pm

I am ok with random increase

% chance to increase per kill
+1 att
+1/+1 armor
+2 to 3 hp

It slows progression, but plz... Don't put a limit.
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Unless this chance is Low I still think the armor part too much
I ask for a limit so people can calculate how strong it can get in total and also having more units to use this ability.( prevent anything ever becoming Op )
This is a strategy game not an Rpg.
Its not a huge deal now of veteran units cause they are not hugely used alot but eventually it will with all this suggested.
I would like to prevent future problems

@Alexander82 Can you come with a final answer on what to do?
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:53 pm

Since armor is equip related and veteraning is about experience, what about giving a 1% to all dodges instead?

So +1 attack, +maxhp (even 5) and 1% to every dodge? (so they can still be hit by unit with the bonus against them)
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Midonik » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:05 pm

That... Sounds reasonable I think. Tho 5 max hp is a bit too much imo.
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:06 pm

Alexander82 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:53 pm
Since armor is equip related and veteraning is about experience, what about giving a 1% to all dodges instead?

So +1 attack, +maxhp (even 5) and 1% to every dodge? (so they can still be hit by unit with the bonus against them)
Sure I like it
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:23 pm

Midonik wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:05 pm
That... Sounds reasonable I think. Tho 5 max hp is a bit too much imo.
Most likely the unit will die fast not living long cause most ppl would get a clue and use the unit that has bonus to it
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by StormSaint373 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:34 am

So...

+5 hp
+1 att
+1%/+1%/+1%

... Per kill.

I see reason.

Will these units be affected by smithing upgrades?
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Alexander82
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:32 pm

since armor won't grow they should receive tech bonuses.

also, for the same reason, i tought that raising a bit the hp bonus might be reasonable, but we might keep it at 3 hp/kill if you think tht 5 is too high
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:39 pm

btw... now techs must make sense.

For example monks wear no armor and use no weapon so I assume they houldn't receive these bonuses (maybe weapons if they use reinforced gloves).

If a unit that wear armor has veteraning it should receive the armor bonu from smithing techs
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:55 am

So that Orc unit with veteran?
If that's the case it needs unit tier upgrades cause they don't do blacksmiths techs

Also for those who don't know, If this ( most likely will ) gets in
Monks arrow and melee dodge are being reduced to 30%

Also for units with veteran that can't use smith upgrades, I feel they should have something else to compensate
Like how monk has a good starting dodge
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:05 am

Yes. Dodge is monk's armor

Also I'd like some change in dodge because right now there are too many turnaround against it
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Tankhead » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:51 am

Alexander82 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:05 am
Yes. Dodge is monk's armor

Also I'd like some change in dodge because right now there are too many turnaround against it
What do you mean in change?
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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:13 pm

At the moment dodge isn't effective against units that have a bonus against you.

My suggestion is that when a unit has a bonus against you the effect of dodge is reduced but not necessarily removed

Ideally the reduction might scale with the entity of the bonus (e.g. Any 100% bonus bypass a 10% dodge so a 50% bonus bypass 5% dodge and a 200% bonus a 20% dodge) but in case it is too complex to code we might stick for a fixed value (20/30% i guess)

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Re: Veteran Limit

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:29 pm

Hm. I like this actually.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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