area damage of ballista IMPLEMENTED

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.

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makazuwr32
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Re: version v1.058

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:49 pm

4? did you increase their cost?
Because in current release version they cost 3 turns and have 2 turns of living time.

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Re: version v1.058

Post by COOLguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:51 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:4? did you increase their cost?
Because in current release version they cost 3 turns and have 2 turns of living time.
You are right. But they must leave if not paid
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: version v1.058

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:49 pm

Maybe too late but still i suggest first to nerf both CURRENT ballistas' splash damage.
Without its incane amounts (normal has 24/20/16 damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from and heavy has 30/24/20 damage) they wouldn't be so insanely OP.

Even normal Ballistas are powerful compared to Heavy knights or other cavalry.

I argee that we can remove 1 range from heavy ballista but still... i made some tests (mathematically) and i must say that even with Stratego's stats ballistas would be still insanely powerful. Ofc not so insane as now but still FAR more powerful that Heavy catapult!!!

To be clear: Heavy catapult deals 39/19/9 area damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from.
And Normal (current one, heavy one in stratego's suggestion) Ballista deals 24/20/16 (Higher!) area damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from.
And even nerfed normal ballista deals 20/16/14 or 20/16/12 damage in total which still HIGHER than normal catapult AND compared to Heavy one.

THAT'S why they are op! Not because other stats.

Current normal ballista's (suggested by stratego's heavy one) potent damage in ranges:
24/20x4=80/16x8=128 or 24/80/128 total potent damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from

Current Heavy ballista's potent damage:
30/24x4=96/20x8=160 or 30/96/160 total potent damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from

Suggested stratego's normal ballista's potent damage:
20/16x4=64/12x8=96 or 20/64/96 total potent damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from

Current normal catapult potent damage:
33/16x4=64/8x8=64 or 33/64/64 total potent damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from (compare this with 24/80/128 where normal ballista (or suggested stratego's) deals TWICE more damage than catapult at 2 tiles range from impact! and even 20/64/96 of stratego's normal variant of ballista deals on 50% more damage than normal catapult)

Current heavy catapult potent damage:
39/19x4=76/9x8=72 or 39/76/72 total potent damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from (compare this with 30/96/160 where heavy ballista deals even more than TWICE more damage than catapult at 2 tiles range from impact! and even 24/80/128 of stratego's heavy variant of ballista deals on 44% more damage than normal catapult)

My suggestion (and not only mine but also detros and GoK):

Normal ballista (current one) with next table of splash damage: 12/8/4 (compared to 12/10/8)
24/16x4=64/8x8=64 or 24/64(-20% damage compared to current and similar to stratego's one.)/64(-50% damage compared to current one and -33% damage compared to stratego's nerfed one) total potent damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from

Heavy ballista (current one) with next table of splash damage: 15/10/5 (compared to 15/12/10)
30/20x4=80/10x8=80 or 30/80(-16.7% damage compared to current and similar to stratego's one.)/80(-50% damage compared to current one and -37.5% damage compared to stratego's one) total potent damage on impact/1 tile from/2 tiles from

This means that in OUR suggestion they'll become even more nerfed in damage without nerfing their other stats.
Approximately normal ballistas will loose 50% of their damage potential and heavy ones will loose 44% damage potential.
OFC they'll still would be good to damage one unit.
Also their damage output would be on pair with catapult's one.

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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by COOLguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:46 am

Good posts. I moved them here. One moment while I consider them
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by COOLguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:54 am

I'll email Daniel. I think this is a very good point - to remove the OP splash damage

So let's go with the stratego version except adding the 1 pierce armor back and make the splash damage to be
normal - 12/8/4
heavy - 15/10/5

Then (as mentioned above) the total potential damage is on par with the catapults. The range and cost balance it to the catapults (and the fact that it is an arrow weapon)
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:03 am

Good to see finally some changes.
Will they both attack twice?
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by godOfKings » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:38 am

I never wanted to nerf ballista armour or health, only give units strong against them more bonus (by the way tanegashima can one hit kill current ballista, a combination of tanegashima, fire archers and siege mantlets is currently best choice to destroy ballista) also nerfing area damage according to mak's suggestion would make it quite balanced, because units with high p armour would b more likely to survive area damage (including knights which would then get about 12 damage 6x2)
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by makazuwr32 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:52 am

COOLguy wrote:I'll email Daniel. I think this is a very good point - to remove the OP splash damage

So let's go with the stratego version except adding the 1 pierce armor back and make the splash damage to be
normal - 12/8/4
heavy - 15/10/5

Then (as mentioned above) the total potential damage is on par with the catapults. The range and cost balance it to the catapults (and the fact that it is an arrow weapon)
I still don't think that this is good idea to nerf it's stats AND splash damage.
Current stats are quite good and ballistas can wistand some damage now.
Maybe only remove 1 piercing armor from both and 1 range from heavy ballista and this would be good enough.
Instead would be much better to use current stats, nerf splash damage and set them as siege units so cavalry will get at least some bonus damage to them.
And also i think that upgrade to heavy ballistas needs higher cost - at least 6 turns.
makazuwr32 wrote: Normal ballista:
Cost 4 turns
hp 12 (lowered by 4 hp, even swordman can kill it now, why?)
2 actions/turn
damage 12 (lowered to 10 kept the same.)
Splash damage 12/8/4
range is same - 5.
speed 1 (same)
piercing armor 6 (lowered to 5)

Heavy ballista:
Upgrade cost is 4 turns (i suggest if we will keep current stats and won't nerf them than increase it to 6 or 7 turns)

Cost same - 4 turns
Hp 18 (lowered by 6 to 12 hp)
2 actions/turn
damage 15 (lowered to 12 by 3 points kept the same)
Range 6 (lowered to 5 i think this is needed)
Armor/Piercing armor 1/7 (lowered to 0/6)
Speed 2
One last thing:
Currently normal ballista can be countered by other normal ballista but it need 2 direct hits.
Suggested by stratego's with improved stats needs 1 direct hit and 1 splash hit from up to 2 tiles.

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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by makazuwr32 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:22 am

I calculated some things and i must say that with BOTH nerfed splash damage AND nerfed hp you can kill normal ballista with 3-4 swordmen with only 2 of them MAYBE would be dead. And if played correct than you can kill ballista without losing ANY swordmen.

I'm not saying that this double nerf (toughness by lowering hp and armor and potent damage via splash damage) will cause again same thing tham they'll become underpowered (as they were some time ago...)

Also with decreased hp normal ballistas would be easier to build by workers requiering only 8 turns to build without ambidextria or 2 turns if you will build it with 4 workers.

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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by COOLguy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 pm

I think the pierce armor went back up? I think it is ok if 4 swordmen can kill it (they r cost 8 total) and they have to surround it to kill it then
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Josh

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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:08 pm

I must repeat myself:
1.
makazuwr32 wrote: Also with decreased hp normal ballistas would be easier to build by workers requiering only 8 turns to build without ambidextria or 2 turns if you will build it with 4 workers.
2.
makazuwr32 wrote:I still don't think that this is good idea to nerf it's stats AND splash damage.
Current stats are quite good and ballistas can wistand some damage now.
Maybe only remove 1 piercing armor from both and 1 range from heavy ballista and this would be good enough.
Instead would be much better to use current stats, nerf splash damage and set them as siege units so cavalry will get at least some bonus damage to them.
And also i think that upgrade to heavy ballistas needs higher cost - at least 6 turns.
3. 8 hp is too low base hp. Even worker has 10. Why wooden, rope and metal ballista would have less?

4. with 8 base hp and first move when you have 2 swordmen you can kill basic ballista with loss of one of them. ONLY.

5.With 12 hp they need 12 turns to build without and 8 with ambidextria (as now) and 3 turns with 3 workers.
For 24 turns you'll get 9 ballistas when you'll build them with 3 workers (from wagon for example, current).

With base hp 8 and ambidextria you can build it for 6 turns with one worker and 2 turns with 3 workers
For 24 turns you'll build 12 ballistas when you'll build them with 3 workers (+33% more ballistas; for the same temp of building now you need 4 workers.)
This way they'll become even more spammable so even lower splash damage wouldn't help with their spam.

And because of i suggest to keep current stats for basic and heavy ballistas with only nerfing splash damage with new formulas and removing 1 piercing armor from both.
Better than nerfing their health make them to count as siege units for cavalry so they'll get bonus damage. So foot units won't one-hit them but cavalry can.

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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:55 am

final coolguy's modifications is uos 10

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