Rebalance for Axeman IMPLEMENTED

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.

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makazuwr32
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Rebalance for Axeman IMPLEMENTED

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:09 pm

This is first part of improving axemen and making them as useful units.
Second part - Master Axeman

I suggest to increase stats of basic axeman:

+2 hp (up to 17 hp)
+1 range (up to 4 range)
+2 attack (up to 7 damage)
+1 piercing armor (up to 1 p.armor)

While keeping their cost - 2 turns.
This way they'll become ranged variant of basic swordman with a bit of piercing armor.

They are balanced with keeping in mind that they are and will still be an infantry-type unit with all blacksmith upgrades for normal infantry included.
Last edited by makazuwr32 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Patrol3110
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by Patrol3110 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:09 pm

Good idea but axe thrower is cost 2 and there were several topics about this already
You cannot deny the will of the people forever

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COOLguy
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by COOLguy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:53 am

I think that I agree with you that the Axe might be underpowered, but I would like to figure out what exactly it is that makes him underused and not just change the stats. I am wary of just stat changes.

Anyone can run tests on him? Stack him against equal turn costs of other units - it should make sense as to what units kill him and which times he is better.

Please have a scenario that he would be the perfect unit for (ie light cavalry for quick stealing towns or ornithopter in towers to kill trebuchets)
- then we can make sure to only change the stats so that it fits its perfect application and doesn't become overpowered (ballistas)
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by COOLguy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:55 am

PS:
Patrol3110 wrote:Good idea but axe thrower is cost 2 and there were several topics about this already
If you find this please link me and I can merge
Thanks!
Josh

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makazuwr32
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:38 am

There were topics about his upgrades, not about rebalancing.

Right now he looses EVERYONE 2 turn unit exept pikeman, skirmisher and shielder.
Archer needs 2 shots to kill him, Swordman needs 2 strikes, Celtic Warrior kills him in one turn with both his actions, Slinger murders him without even going into range of attack of axeman.
Shielder loses to axeman but only because of his speed of 2. And pikeman isn't designed to fight with him.
Skirmisher looses to axeman because of his low damage and the point that axeman deals melee-type damage.
With upgraded units he even more has no chance: Crossbow archer will always be out of range of even possible attack of axeman, Broad swordman with 11 damage and 21 hp can't even fear him, Master Slinger kills him in 2 shots (1 turn) and defender can cover much better than shielder from him because of 3 armor. And if axeman comes close to him to attack he can in his turn move 2 tiles and strike back.
I'm not counting Scout bird.

also Axeman looses to Guard tower (buildable for 3 turns with ambidextria): he deals only 15 damage to it (needs 4 turns to kill) and gains 5 damage from (needs 3 turns to be killed)
Right now he actually good only in killing factory-type buildings. But still they have extremly low range for that.

With updated stats he still loose to archer (archer still outranges axeman) but you will need much more careful because of increased damage and range (axeman can kill archer from 2 shots now) and archer will also need now 3 shots to kill him - similar to swordman.
Axeman now can outmaneuver swordman and kill him (but in close-range combat he still loses).
Celtic Warrior if get's close still kills axeman but now axeman has a chance to kill him so this one depends on terrain and both players.
Slinger needs still 2 turns to kill axeman but now when they have same range wins the one who will strike first.
Crossbow archer still needs 2 turns to kill him, Broad swordman is a bit more powerful than he and still can kill him but with loss of about 50% or even more hp, Master Slinger will still kill kim from 2 shots also.
but Defender can't get close to him to strike with axeman's range of 4.

And he will do to Guard tower 21 damage - kills it in 3 turns while guard tower deals to him only 4 damage - needs 5 turns to kill.
With my suggestions he will become much more useful unit, who will not die in one turn.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by godOfKings » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:06 am

if its range is increased then i dont think it needs increased pierce armour, i think either increase only range and atk, OR increase atk, hp and p.armour
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:00 pm

+1 p.armor can be moved to the upgrade of axeman. So he will not have any armor. But other than that these changes are needed.
He REALLY needs additional range and damage as well as more toughness.

I see several ways of making him useful:
1. Complete reimagine of unit, making him archer-type with melee damage and relying on archer upgrades. Needs revamp of bonuses and stats tweaks.
2. Greatly increasing bonuses to buildings. This way he become utility anti-building only unit. Needs rewamp of bonuses for him exusively.
3. Keeping his bonuses:
3.1. Needs far more damage (+5 at least) as well as archer-like range. This way he'll become a bit more useful glass cannon-like unit, who also can help up a bit in normal battle (not in destroying enemy's base)
3.2. Needs far more survivability for this weak damage. Making him a bit weaker shielder-like unit with some attack range. Great hp and armor increase.
3.3. Making him balanced between last 2 points - a bit more damage, a bit more hp (+2 only!), +1 range. Golden middle, becomes pretty good alternative to archers in the beginning for those who prefers to concentrate on melee upgrades in blacksmith.

I chose 3.3 variant. Not so complicated, pretty good damage without bonuses to units for 2 turn unit.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by COOLguy » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:02 pm

Which one is most historical? (ie can't throw as far as atlatl and archer)
What units should he be best against? What should he be doing?
Thanks!
Josh

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makazuwr32
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:47 pm

Russian axe throwers could throw axe really far. Maybe not so far than archer but still far. And certainly farther than skirmishers because throwing axe is lighter than throwing spear.
And even more they did extremly good damage - sometimes thrown axe could crack in two helmet and head of unlucky wielder.

Personally i think that if historically accurate than he definately need 2 throws (maybe after upgrade), better range than skirmisher (4) and has bonuses not against buildings because to buildings throwing axe can't do so serious damage as sword but against living units. infantries, archer-like units, even cavalries.
So bonuses against everything living but they still weren't so accurate so on fast units (speed 4+) they have a chance to miss. +20% miss chance per each 1 speed up from 3.
They were also medium equiped (better than archer but sometimes a bit worse than swordman). Still they must benefit from infantry blacksmith upgrades.
Also if possible tp make it so that if attacked unit is within 2 range axe thrower ignores armor? because as more closer were you to the thrower as higher damage throwing axe could do because of less loss in momentum.

So if historically accurate than i think next stats (also because throwing axe is much harder to learn than working with a sword increase his cost):

Cost 3 turns (still trainable at barracks)
Hp - 17 (by 1 less than swordman, +3 after upgrade)
Attack - 6 (melee type, 75% bonus to all foot based living targets (infantries, archers) and ignores armor at range of 2, gains 8 attack after upgrade)
Has additional 20% chance to miss for each point of speed higher than 3 (after upgrade that chanse lowered to 10% per each point of speed higher than 3)
Range - 4 (stays same after upgrade)
Armor - 0
P.Armor - 0 (gains +1 after upgrade)
Actions/turn - 1 (gains +1 after upgrade)
Speed - 3
Sight - 6
still counts as infantry for archers.

So it will become something like archer on steroids when enemy close but without increasing range from blacksmith
Last edited by makazuwr32 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:45 am, edited 4 times in total.

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godOfKings
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by godOfKings » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:54 pm

Well realistically an axe should deal more damage to an infantry than an arrow, because axe opens big wounds and makes unit bleed faster, so anti infantry? or for current range of 3 it can have bonus against both infantry and archer while archer also has bonus against axeman?
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:06 pm

godOfKings wrote:Well realistically an axe should deal more damage to an infantry than an arrow, because axe opens big wounds and makes unit bleed faster, so anti infantry? or for current range of 3 it can have bonus against both infantry and archer while archer also has bonus against axeman?
with range of 3 they still would be underused. Even with bonuses.
But with additional range (+1) from one side and ability to ignore armor in close range from another they'll become very intresting unit.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by COOLguy » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:40 am

Would point out that
-skirmisher has javelin not spear
-atlatl is like handheld siege
-idk about axe having more damage than arrow (the force of arrow should carry farther)

But these stats look pretty good. Let me sleep on it before I decide
Thanks!
Josh

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makazuwr32
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:18 am

I know just that russian axe throwers could throw axes far. Farther than their spear throwers. They didn't use javelins. Can't compare with atl-atl - don't know anything about.

But throw axes were doing better damage than arrows because if shot by arrow than you can just take it off your body later. They (arrows) can't damage bones. Only if shot into heart or eye you could die from arrow. Or if you were shot by multiple arrows.

Throwing axe on the other side could easily damage bones and armor. If thrown into head even could crack helmet and head's bone.

Also one more suggestion - he can't counterattack.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:42 pm

So? Final resolution?

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by COOLguy » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:50 am

Okay - I think it is good! So ACCEPTED! Two comments:

- range must never be higher than archer (so 4 is max)
- and I like the no counter attack suggestion

Can anyone json?
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman - ACCEPTED

Post by godOfKings » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:54 am

here is the thing, if axeman has bonus against horses, then they wont b able to dodge an axe, only wagon and chariots can dodge axes then
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman - ACCEPTED

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:41 am

Alright then bonus to all foot units only.
Foot archers and infantry.
Updated stats.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman - ACCEPTED

Post by godOfKings » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:11 am

actually makazuwr, after studying ur stats suggestions carefully, i actually dont like it at all.
mainly because its JUST ANOTHER SLINGSHOOTER with 2 more damage and 1 more cost and no counter atk. in fact i like current axeman stats as a ranged building destroyer better, and if u take counter atk into account, then it could ACTUALLY DESTROY A GUARD TOWER BY ITSELF if the guard tower is forced to melee atk it instead of ranged atk,

and with physical atk axethrower is also good against skirmisher and (somewhat) against siege units,

so i think its better that instead of making it into another slingshooter + skirmisher, give current axethrower a 100% bonus against siege engines dealing 10 damage, that means similar bonus as defender

cuz right now ballista is the new trend not archer

there r already alt alts that can play the role that ur suggested stats of axethrower could, and i dont want another ranged infantry slayer that can literally slay them in a single turn, archers and skirmishers would b useless as they cannot kill an infantry in a single turn
makazuwr32 wrote:Right now he looses EVERYONE 2 turn unit exept pikeman, skirmisher and shielder.
at least axe thrower is good against these units, and these units r good against watever is axethrower's counter
Last edited by godOfKings on Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman - ACCEPTED

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:29 pm

1. He still deals melee damage. Slingshooter deals ranged.
2. He ignores melee armor in 2 tiles range - especially effective against armored targets like spartan hoplite.
3. He is affected by sword upgrades.
4. He still counts as infantry for archers = more damage from them.

Also it is better to compare him with flail soldier due to both have great bonuses to all foot units and ignore armor in close range. My suggestion exchanges raw damage and counter attack ability to attack and armor ignore ranges. Also both still too vurable to ranged attacks and cavalry.

I thought for him as close range anti armored unit and mid range melee damage dealer.
This is also more historically accurate than antibuilding one.

Atl atl is different - he is not ignore armor. He is great anti archer unit early due to 2 actions and 4 speed. But nothing more.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman - ACCEPTED

Post by godOfKings » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:27 pm

I think throwing axe ignoring armor is absurd, because if u were to atk someone's arm with an axe at melee, u could cut it clean off, but if u throw it, it will highest damage the bones, no matter how much force it has throwing axe can never b as effective as a heavy melee weapon like sword, battleaxe or mace, so maximum I agree with high base damage but not ignore armor, throwing axe cannot b the same as a flail

I think Ur stats suggestion is good for anti building axe thrower but not make it anti infantry armor ignoring axe thrower,

For example in the grand canyon map where I built the guard tower, it was in such a location that only 1 infantry can atk it at a time, but axe throwers could stand behind the infantry and atk it from a range
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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makazuwr32
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:50 pm

First thing gok - throwing axe is different from melee one. It maybe can't cut an arm but i personally saw how master axe thrower (in special place) just cut in two pieces helmet. And it was heavy helmet, even more heavy than spartans used.
Speed of axe was 25-30 meters/second.
If under that helmet was head axe will split helmet in two parts and come on 10-15 santimeters into brains and surely kill helmet wielder.
There were shown as well how it worked on other parts of armor - i must say that open wounds will be anywhere despite the fact the chainmail armor was pretty heavy and offered great protection against swords.
Only full plated armor can stop it.
Axe is far more brutal than flail and mace as weapon. Throwing one as well. Swords (unless dual wielding ones) couldn't even deal same damage as axe to armor.
Flail and mace are better than swords but still they can only damage bones. They can't leave open wounds.
Axe and especially throwing one (lighter but deadlier!) can.

Second - historically accurate axe throwers were worse than swordmen and other melee fighters in fighting for fortresses and buildings. Fire archers also were better than axe throwers to siege buildings.

Maybe instead of armor ignore add him other special effect - brutal weapon: causes poison-like "open wounds effect" with less damage per turn but for far more (8-15) turns than poison. Still can be removed if unit is healed any way. Stackable with poison.

Also because discussion continued i remove accepted status.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by godOfKings » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:40 pm

I don't really know if it is possible to json ignore armor effect for only range 2 and no effect for higher range, may b simply make it 3 range and ignore armor effect, and I agree that it always bleeds wen hit, so instead of bonus, bleeding effect lasts 6 turns dealing 3 damage, I was only thinking in terms of gameplay and strategy, but may b u r right (now that I checked more detailed descriptions in websites)

I think it is good enough

Cost 3
HP 17
Atk 6 (ignores armor)
Range 3 (no need for higher range + miss chance)
Armor 0/0
Sight 4
Speed 3
Weapon effect: Bleeding (lasts 6 turns dealing 3 damage)
Cannot counter atk
(Upgrade stats same as makazuwr's suggestion

At least this is easier to code than to make ignore armor effect in 2 range and not ignore it in range 3 and 4
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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makazuwr32
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Alright. I agree with these stats.
Then what about upgrade - what stats must it gain?
As before
+3 hp
+1 damage
+1 p.armor
+1 action/turn?

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:55 pm

@makazuwr32 I feel like unit discussed in this topic should be new one - not rebalance for axeman. Something specialized or regional (maybe hurlbat thrower - 4 attack, 4 range, 2x attack, bleed 2points x5 turns, stacking, without ignore armor - rest stays the same). Making 2 turn -> 3 turn unit feels weird.
As there is cool design for axe thrower. Could there be some agreed nerf to make it 2 turns again? It's to do upgrade normally.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by makazuwr32 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:59 pm

Not my concern anymore.
I am tired from aos so feel free to discuss and balance units as you thing it should be.

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by Lynx Shafir » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:15 pm

As for me a 2 turn cost should be more generic
With no passives (Storm'image)
With +upgrade

And we could have a 3 cost with bleed or whatever in a chosen nation
-No upgrade
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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:19 pm

That's exactly what I'm talking about.
But should axe thrower stats be changed? I think his upgrade would have 19hp, 8 power, 4 range and 1/1 armor, so how could base one be rebalanced (right now it only has niche - ranged normal armor damage), how to make it used?

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Re: Rebalance for Axeman

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:04 pm

Stats remain the same. Axe throwers are getting new tech - Balanced Throwing Axes - +1 power +1 range (additionally to upgrade).
Upgrade will be researchable in Nordic Hall
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