slinger purpose change... IMPLEMENTED

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.

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StormSaint373
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slinger purpose change... IMPLEMENTED

Post by StormSaint373 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:25 pm

I don't see it really used...

Yes, it has 2 attacks... But without the ability to upgrade via smithing techs... It's kinda useless.

So, I propose it to be a skirmisher with 2 attacks instead of a supposed Archer. (Like a voulgier is to a spearman), because stones aren't really good vs armor and it has a shield that currently isn't represented. But, I do believe that he should have bonuses vs CHEAP INF, and ARCHERS instead...

and plz make affected by the smithy.
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Endru1241
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Re: slinger purpose change...

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:20 pm

I actually read quite a lot about sling.
In reality sling in ancient times was perfected (there was nothing to make it better). At that time piercing (shaped like two cones joined) and lead bullets were used (lead has greatest density, so biggest mass by air resistance). With that they could deal damage despite common armors. Lead bullet shot from sling can have over 110J of energy - that's 4-5 times as much as arrow shot from ancient times bow, of course because of piercing arrow point being about 16 times smaller, pure penetrating power was about 4 times weaker (but it still dealt damage - energy has to release somehow). Basing on energy properties flesh damage must have been tremendous (just to have something to relate to - modern gun can have 200J of energy and similar surface of hit as arrow). For pure comparison - longbow delivered around 70J (that's 11 times penetrating power of sling bullet), while crossbow could get ~60-90J. Latest medieval crossbows could have over 100J at 80m range.
Sling could also outrange archers by far (there is few written accounts to sling outranging bow by double ).
What's interesting, was that sling had maximum range of over 400 meters - it's actually close to longbow maximum range.
Simple bow could shot light arrows for 300m or so. Heavier arrows used for armor piercing flown around 200m.
Effective accurate range of ranged weapons is something like:
Axe, javelin ~30m
Atlatl ~40-45m
Regular bow
with armor piercing arrows ~40-50m
with lighter arrows ~60m
Composite bow ~60-90m
Early crossbow ~60m
Later crossbow ~80m
Longbow, Sling ~100m

One more comparison - average sling rate of fire was similar to longbow - around 10 shots per minute, while early crossbow needed ~30 seconds to reload and target.
Medieval people stopped using it (or used rarely), because slingers were commonly trained from childhood. Modern cases show few years of training is needed at minimum to be accurate.
Archers needed months, crossbowmen only weeks.
There is also an issue of impossibility to synchronise with other slingers (no chance for effective salvo), much more space needed for shot and inability to shoot from arrow slits.

But nothing about slingers justifies archer bonus (they only outranged and outpowered them).

Summing up - if we consider reality slinger could have:
Perfect accuracy, 7 range, 6-7 melee type damage, cost of 4 or more and have no blacksmith upgrades (should also be unable to shoot from any tower). No one would train that.

I believe current one is somehow made to be insufficiently trained slinger shooting very small bullets (two at a time maybe?). So it's not so bad representation.


Skipping reality and talking about balance - I see no reason why couldn't he be affected by blacksmith.
While we are at rebalancing - before upgrade he's completely useless vs light cavalry (90% miss chance) and pretty bad vs any unit other than cheap melee (45% miss), so I'd boost his accuracy to 4% miss chance per speed point (upgraded has 2%) or get rid of miss chance altogether.
As to making him anti-archer - I'm against it. We already have altalt shooting twice.
I would rather give him pure bonus vs archers or even bonus vs cavalry instead (huge body of a mount is easier target, often poorly protected).
But I don't think he would need additional bonuses with blacksmith upgrades and normal accuracy.

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makazuwr32
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Re: slinger purpose change...

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:38 pm

I'd say just give him blacksmith upgrades, remove miss chance and keep other stats at place including bonuses.

That way he will have range 6 or 7 i think.

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Endru1241
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Re: slinger purpose change...

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:49 pm

With +2 from blacksmith - 6 range. Upgrade to master gives no additional range.
Just right.

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StormSaint373
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Re: slinger purpose change...

Post by StormSaint373 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:13 am

And... What about the shield he's carrying?

What about dmg?
Beware the calm before the Tempest. . .

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Endru1241
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Re: slinger purpose change...

Post by Endru1241 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:47 am

Swordsmen have shield too. I don't see any bonuses vs archers, nor pierce armor on them.
But seriously - Slinger already has some purpose - it's best damage dealer among 2 turn units vs melee (12 damage, 18 upgraded one). He's just annoying with miss chance and becomes obsolete as blacksmith kicks in (archer gets 11 damage with 7 range, crossbowman 12 with 8 range).
With blacksmith master slinger gets 24 damage with 6 range! It's enough to kill man-at-arms in one turn. That in itself can be too powerful. It is kinda risky for balance. I don't wanna add more issues to it.

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Puss_in_Boots
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Re: slinger purpose change...

Post by Puss_in_Boots » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:29 am

But that blacksmith tech is for archery not slinging.
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Endru1241
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Re: slinger purpose change...

Post by Endru1241 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:56 am

Skirmisher is affected by it.
He is no archer either.
I believe those tech is about overall advancements concerning effectiveness of ranged weapons ( including knowledge - like new type of more specialized projectiles or new techniques of shooting/throwing).

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makazuwr32
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Re: slinger purpose change...

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:49 am

Indeed.
Blacksmith techs also will add him more armor and thus more survivability.

Also storm:
AoS has no techs to increase armor for shielded units.

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Re: slinger purpose change... IMPLEMENTED

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:52 pm

added blacksmith techs affectance
and removed miss chance
by Endru. in next will be in.

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