Siege units balance- IMPLEMENTED

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Endru1241
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Siege units balance- IMPLEMENTED

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:39 pm

1. Trebuchet has 1000% bonus vs heavy catapult and 60% vs normal one - either the first bonus is wrong or second one. Either way - now trebuchet hit leaves catapult with a little hp and kills it completely after upgrade.

2. Battering ram has insanely high pierce armor - 180, but there is a problem - balista hit ( or tie fighter, but let's ignore it as it is a joke) does the same damage as archer unit - lowering it to 7 or even lower would make it more logical. At 7 armor fully upgraded crossbowman still hit for 1 hp and at least balista hurts it a little (not enough to matter - 5 hp hit with 100 hp is still 20 hits to destroy)

3. Balista is totally a waste of build time - there is only one advantage over catapult - you build it twice as fast which almost never comes useful (let's be honest here - does anyone ever builds balista? I mean why would anyone bother when there is no units with significantly weaker pierce armor over normal one and catapult is available). The problem is that even 3 balistas are just weaker than catapult - because of range.
Lets consider a situation where balista is trying to kill one fire archer (3 turn, weaker unit) with full upgrades - it goes into range of 7 and bah - shot from fire archer for 4 or 5 hp and burning effect, another turn it gets into range of 6 and even considering that archer doesn't have anywhere to run, still that archer is out of range while we got shoot and double burning certainly kills our balista - not even one shot chance - sad, just sad. Especially considering the fact that catapult would kill that bastard in one turn (with a little luck).
One solution that comes to my mind would be increasing balista range to 6 and making it affected by archer training (well skipping logic about the fact why should it affect, it would be good solution in balancing game flow) or just making it's range 7.

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:54 pm

ballista: i agree, what about a double attack per turn?

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:13 pm

3. That would make it a killing machine in some situations - let's see what others think about it.

2. That kind of a change would also mean balista would damage battering ram a little more, but still the pierce armor could be lowered to 10.

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Darkknight » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:04 am

I disagree about balista being useless. They can be build quicker than a catapult and dont need to research area damage. Just hide them inside towers and when the enemy attacks with groups of units the enemies would be killed too easily and the fire damage could be avoided because they are hidden inside towers. Also you can put them inside wagons to transport them easily towars the enemies.
But i do agree that it should have some range. Maybe +1 range?

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:37 am

I agree that ballista needs +1 range and bonus against battering rams. but them being useless is what i totally disagree. I mean they are my fav siege units using which i have won unimaginable battle(for instance a battle in which my oponent had 8 tcs and stables barracks 30-40 man at arms and what not and i had just 3 tcs with only 3 ballista and 1 catapult ship which missed all the time till i researched area damage. ) they can easily destroy hoardes by guerilla warfare and technique even with present stats. So just try to learn how to use them properly
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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:19 am

3. Well, I agree that balista now could have some uses, but when you have area damage it's just too weak compared to catapult and it still needs 6 turn research to build. Or rather it's use is easily replaced by other units. In most cases 5 archers (5*2 is like 6 + 4 turns) does better job. Anyway we all agree that 5 range is rather limited.

TheBluePhoenix wrote:But them being useless is what i totally disagree. I mean they are my fav siege units using which i have won unimaginable battle(for instance a battle in which my oponent had 8 tcs and stables barracks 30-40 man at arms and what not and i had just 3 tcs with only 3 ballista and 1 catapult ship which missed all the time till i researched area damage. ) they can easily destroy hoardes by guerilla warfare and technique even with present stats. So just try to learn how to use them properly
Didn't he use any catapults? When I tried to use balistas, catapult behind a horde of enemies is my greatest and sadly almost unbeatable challenge (never done it without using catapults or trebuchets) - well defended ballista (in a fortress) cannot clear units close enough to catapult to allow deploying cavalry to destroy catapult.

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:29 pm

I wouldn't make ballista make a double attack, but the range increasing should be a good choice and also, i think that the ballista should have a linear area damage like this:

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:35 pm

Alexander82 wrote:I wouldn't make ballista make a double attack, but the range increasing should be a good choice and also, i think that the ballista should have a linear area damage...
Great, and if linear area damage would be implemented It would be great for many units.

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:41 pm

we might also male the damage scale with distance, but it might require extra coding.

Like 100%, 75%, 50% 25%
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Re: Siege units balance

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:36 pm

I agree with the range of ballistas being limited. The game i was talking about, after building 4 ballistas i started building catapult ships , castles and researched area damage simultaneously. I had 4 workers and soon before my oponent could build any catapult i started crushing them using my shipss and trebuchets as he wasted much time in transporting them and i destroyed his wagons very easily with the same resources. Neverthe less i still consider myself lucky to have won that battle( with some brains too) ;)
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Re: Siege units balance

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:39 pm

Area damage with decreasing % will not be implemented because dev said he has no time for it and will only do so if a seperate topic is opened for it and a majority accepts it. I had proposed a similar logic in conversion in the topic healer to druid upgrade you can check out if u want to)
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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:08 pm

So is everyone agreeing with:
1. Correction of trebuchet bonus against heavy catapult (from 1000% to 60%)
2. Lowering battering ram pierce armor to 8-10
3. Raising balista range to 6.

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:51 pm

Yes
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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:54 pm

Area damage with decreasing % will not be implemented because dev said he has no time for it
we have already decreasing damage (eg. catapult area damage works like that.
but if u refer to the distance of the catapult to target than: yes, we dont have that. and i feel that would over-complicate the game, this is the main reason - but if i see many requests on that i will do someday.

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:13 pm

Yeah right you told me this previously.soon i will open a topic if its requirement is unavoidable. But i think at the rate at which new units are being implemented, its going to be complicated soon enough :D
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Re: Siege units balance

Post by COOLguy » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:43 pm

Endru1241 wrote:So is everyone agreeing with:
1. Correction of trebuchet bonus against heavy catapult (from 1000% to 60%)
2. Lowering battering ram pierce armor to 8-10
3. Raising balista range to 6.
Yes, but not number 2. The battering ram is plenty weak already. Kill it with a swordsman, knight, or burning.
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:31 pm

Do you realize that lowering it's pierce armor to 8 changes only balista, tie fighter and maybe fire archer damage against it? Fully upgraded crossbowman has 8 attack, adv. warship - 9. It's still 1 damage. And these two, from what I remember, are strongest shooters.
It's mostly a flavor to stop battering rams from being 45 times more resistant to arrows than fortress, and by some margin making balista a tiny little bit better.

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:46 am

The battering rams were made too be arrow resistant. Hence all ranged units should damage only 1 . I overlook that point but i too disagree with it
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Re: Siege units balance

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:14 pm

was this discussion closed?

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Re: Siege units balance

Post by COOLguy » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:44 pm

Yes, you edited the bonuses so that they were fixed.
Thanks!
Josh

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